Elfling

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

SMF - Just Installed!

Author Topic: [s] Unattested Forms in David Salo's _Gateway to Sindarin_  (Read 843 times)

Kate Ebneter

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
[s] Unattested Forms in David Salo's _Gateway to Sindarin_
« on: November 10, 2012, 05:00:00 PM »

Howdy,

Does anyone know of a list that shows which forms in David Salo's
_Gateway to Sindarin_ are derived by Salo and are not attested in
Tolkien's own writings? I know that it was Salo's intention to mark
all the forms accordingly, but (not surprisingly) there's actually some
inconsistency in the marking. For my own purposes, I would like to know
which forms Salo derived as opposed to those which actually come from
Tolkien. I haven't been able to find a comprehensive list, however.

Thanks, Kate



[elfling ID#36415]
[original subject:  Unattested Forms in David Salo's _Gateway to Sindarin_]
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 05:00:00 PM by Kate Ebneter »
Logged

David Salo

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 601
    • View Profile
[s] Unattested Forms in David Salo's _Gateway to Sindarin_
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2012, 05:00:00 PM »

Kate Ebneter wrote:
>
> Howdy,
>
> Does anyone know of a list that shows which forms in David Salo's
> _Gateway to Sindarin_ are derived by Salo and are not attested in
> Tolkien's own writings? I know that it was Salo's intention to mark
> all the forms accordingly, but (not surprisingly) there's actually
> some inconsistency in the marking. For my own purposes, I would like
> to know which forms Salo derived as opposed to those which actually
> come from Tolkien. I haven't been able to find a comprehensive list,
> however.
>
> Thanks, Kate
>

Naturally, I have a list -- several, actually -- but a lot depends on
what you mean by 'not attested'.  For instance, the gerund _aderthad_
'reuniting' is attested. Gerunds in -ad are regularly formed from verbs
in -a-.  So is adertha- 'reunite' a reconstruction of an unattested
verb, or can we consider _aderthad_ to be a verbal form which attests
the verb, just as _linnathon_ attests the verb _linna-_? Without a
definite (and arbitrary) answer to such questions, it's impossible to
say which words are 'attested' and which are not.

I do, however, want to draw attention to a number of 'ghost words' which
appeared in Gateway: unattested words which were mostly taken from
compounds or inflected forms, which, based on reanalysis or additional
information, I no longer think can be accepted as Sindarin. These are:

Dae 'great' -- I took this from the compound Daed(h)elos, 'Great Fear',
but it now seems this is a reduplication.  The correct word for 'great'
is _daer_.

Gochel 'ice' -- Taken from Forochel, which now appears to be
forod+hel(l).  There is still an inconsistency in formation between this
and Arothir (arod+hîr).

Govad- 'meet' -- Taken from govannen. I still think this was the basis
of the word govannen at the time The Lord of the Rings was written, but
Tolkien revised his interpretation of the word.

Ir 'the' -- From the phrase ir Ithil.  I didn't have sufficient basis
for asserting this meaning of the word.  It might mean something else,
though I'm not sure what. There are very little grounds for assuming an
antihiatic r, however.

Ivor 'crystal' -- I shouldn't have included this in Gateway. There's
no basis for it at all.

Ivrin 'crystalline' -- Ivrin is a real word, but there's insufficient
evidence for this meaning.

Los 'flower' -- I took this from the words mallos, uilos, and Edhellos,
but I think they all have different explanations. E.G., Edhellos may be
a dissimilation from *Edhelloth.

Ostirion 'fortress with watch-tower'. This is almost certainly a Quenya
word. I assumed, on insufficient grounds, that the placename
'Elostirion' had to be Sindarin; I now think that was wrong.

Rêg 'holly, thorn'. I took this from the place-name Region, but there's
insufficient evidence for this meaning in Sindarin.

Rhu- 'east'. I assumed this was a by-form of rhûn in the name Rhudaur,
but it appears to have a different etymology, from the root srug, and
means 'evil'.

Ruith 'anger'. I constructed this as a Sindarin equivalent to
'Noldorin' rúth (from the sword-name Aranrúth), assuming the root ruk.
This was wrong; the etymology is from a root ruth, and the Sindarin
should still be rúth.

Taig 'marking a boundary'. I assumed this to be the first element in the
place-name Taiglin/Teiglin, but there was insufficient evidence for it.

Tirion 'watchtower' -- a Quenya word.

Tirn 'watcher' -- I took this from the words ethir 'spy', gwachaedir
'Palantír', and heledirn 'kingfisher', but there was insufficient
evidence to show that (a) it was present in all of these words (I doubt
very much the -n(o) element existed in gwachaedir, and probably not in
ethir either) (b) existed as an independent word.

Thaur 'fenced'. Assumed to be an element in the placename Arthórien, on
the analogy of a similar name in The Etymologies. There's insufficient
evidence for this meaning, or for the independent existence of the word.



[elfling ID#36417]
[original subject:  Unattested Forms in David Salo's _Gateway to Sindarin_]
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 05:00:00 PM by David Salo »
Logged

Kate Ebneter

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
[s] Unattested Forms in David Salo's _Gateway to Sindarin_
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2012, 05:00:00 PM »

iiipitaka wrote:

>
>
> Kate Ebneter wrote:
> >
> > Howdy,
> >
> > Does anyone know of a list that shows which forms in David Salo's
> > _Gateway to Sindarin_ are derived by Salo and are not attested in
> > Tolkien's own writings? I know that it was Salo's intention to
> > mark all the forms accordingly, but (not surprisingly) there's
> > actually some inconsistency in the marking. For my own purposes, I
> > would like to know which forms Salo derived as opposed to those
> > which actually come from Tolkien. I haven't been able to find a
> > comprehensive list, however.
> >
> > Thanks, Kate
> >
>
> Naturally, I have a list -- several, actually -- but a lot depends on
> what you mean by 'not attested'. For instance, the gerund _aderthad_
> 'reuniting' is attested. Gerunds in -ad are regularly formed from
> verbs in -a-. So is adertha- 'reunite' a reconstruction of an
> unattested verb, or can we consider _aderthad_ to be a verbal form
> which attests the verb, just as _linnathon_ attests the verb _linna-_?
> Without a definite (and arbitrary) answer to such questions, it's
> impossible to say which words are 'attested' and which are not.
>
>
Hi, David,

Thanks for the quick response! What I meant by 'unattested' is that
Tolkien himself had 'asterisk words' in his writings, E.G., in the
Etymologies, and there are also 'asterisk words' in your book, some of
which are derived by you, and it's not always clear to me which is
which, at least, without digging through a lot of books. It's not that
I think yours are invalid or anything, I just am interested in seeing
which constructions were made by Tolkien and which were derived by
someone working with Tolkien's principles. So, yes, strictly speaking,
for my purposes, _adertha_ would be 'unattested' as the word _per se_
wasn't written down anywhere (that we know of) by Tolkien, but was
derived by you. I don't doubt its _correctness_, of course.

Thanks, Kate



[elfling ID#36418]
[original subject:  Unattested Forms in David Salo's _Gateway to Sindarin_]
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 05:00:00 PM by Kate Ebneter »
Logged