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Author Topic: [s] Sindarin for 'Axe'  (Read 2837 times)

Yavieatanone

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[s] Sindarin for 'Axe'
« on: November 04, 2003, 05:00:00 PM »

I'm having a hard time finding a word in Sindarin for 'near'. Could
someone help me out?

Yavie



[elfling ID#27390]
[original subject:  Sindarin for 'Near']
« Last Edit: November 04, 2003, 05:00:00 PM by Yavieatanone »
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Erufailon

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[s] Sindarin for 'Axe'
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2003, 05:00:00 PM »

The closest one I've found was _nef_ meaning 'on this side, side of'.
Maybe you could do something with it?

Berio le I mBelain Erufailon


------------------------------------------------------------
Yavieatanone wrote:


> I'm having a hard time finding a word in Sindarin for 'near'. Could
> someone help me out?
>
> Yavie



[elfling ID#27412]
[original subject:  Sindarin for 'Near']
« Last Edit: November 07, 2003, 05:00:00 PM by Erufailon »
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Arthur Boccaccio

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[s] Sindarin for 'Axe'
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2003, 05:00:00 PM »

Erufailon wrote:
> The closest one I've found was _nef_ meaning 'on this side, side of'.
> Maybe you could do something with it?
>
I would like to know if _nef_ triggers any of the mutations. I know that
_bo_ and _vi_ do not trigger mutations, but _nef_ is the only
preposition listed in every source I've seen that is not specified as
either triggering or not triggering a mutation. If it triggers a
mutation, would this be the hard mutation triggered by _ned_?

Arthur



[elfling ID#27420]
[original subject:  Sindarin for 'Near']
« Last Edit: November 07, 2003, 05:00:00 PM by Arthur Boccaccio »
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Travis Henry

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[s] Sindarin for 'Axe'
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2007, 05:00:00 PM »

 I know that Quenya for axe is . Did Tolkien give the Sindarin
 word? If not, has anyone seen a Neo-Sindarin version?

My best is * , modeled on q  versus s  'horse'.

I'm trying to make 'Axe-land': . I couldn't find any
examples of if and how  assimilate. Would it be ? The
closest I could find is  assimilating to , based on
'outer circle' from  'out-' +  'round'.

Any ideas?

Travis






[elfling ID#34466]
[original subject:  Sindarin for 'Axe']
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 05:00:00 PM by Travis Henry »
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Terry Dock

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[s] Sindarin for 'Axe'
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2007, 05:00:00 PM »

Travis Henry a écrit :
> I know that Quenya for axe is . Did Tolkien give the
> Sindarin word? If not, has anyone seen a Neo-Sindarin version? My
> best is * , modeled on q  versus s
> 'horse'. I'm trying to make 'Axe-land': . I
> couldn't find any examples of if and how  assimilate.
> Would it be ? The closest I could find is
> assimilating to , based on  'outer circle' from
> 'out-' +  'round'. Any ideas?
My bet would be on *_Pelechnor_ or maybe *_Pelegnor_? I don't know
exactly how pelech+(n)dor would behave.

--Terry



[elfling ID#34467]
[original subject:  Sindarin for 'Axe']
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 05:00:00 PM by Terry Dock »
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Matthew Dinse

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[s] Sindarin for 'Axe'
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2007, 05:00:00 PM »

Terry Dock wrote:
>
> Travis Henry a écrit :
> > I know that Quenya for axe is . Did Tolkien give the
Sindarin word? If not, has anyone seen a Neo-Sindarin version?

Well, _pelekko_ is Qenya — why not use S. _hathol_ (wj:234), which is in
that place translated as 'axe'? I assume it comes from skat 'break
asunder' (v:386), which would be fitting.

And if you still wanted to use something related to *pelek, the
Goldogrin counterpart given to _pelekko_ was _peleg_ (ii:346).

For 'Axe-land', you could make _*Hatholdor_ or _*Hathaldor_. However,
the second element could be misconstrued as being _taur_, so there's
also the possibility of making something like _*Hatholien_ or
_*Hathalien_ as well, imitating the formation of _Ithilien_ and
_Anórien_.

- Matt Dinse



[elfling ID#34468]
[original subject:  Sindarin for 'Axe']
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 05:00:00 PM by Matthew Dinse »
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Aelindis

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[s] Sindarin for 'Axe'
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2007, 05:00:00 PM »

Matthew Dinse wrote:

> Why not use S. _hathol_ (wj:234), which is  in that place translated
> as 'axe'? I assume it comes from skat 'break  asunder' (v:386),
> which would be fitting.

While I agree with your suggestions otherwise, it seems to me that (N.)
_hathol_ would rather come from _syad-_ (v:389).

*Erna



[elfling ID#34469]
[original subject:  Sindarin for 'Axe']
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 05:00:00 PM by Aelindis »
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Matthew Dinse

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[s] Sindarin for 'Axe'
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2007, 05:00:00 PM »

aelindis wrote:
>
> 'Matthew Dinse' wrote:
>
> > Why not use S. _hathol_ (wj:234), which is  in that place translated
> > as 'axe'? I assume it comes from skat 'break  asunder' (v:386),
> > which would be fitting.
>
> While I agree with your suggestions otherwise, it seems to me that
> (N.) _hathol_ would rather come from _syad-_ (v:389).
>

Ack! Thanks for catching that! :)

- Matt



[elfling ID#34470]
[original subject:  Sindarin for 'Axe']
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 05:00:00 PM by Matthew Dinse »
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Traverse Travis

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[s] Sindarin for 'Axe'
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2007, 05:00:00 PM »

Thanks for the help everybody. I'm glad to know Tolkien's word
. Yet for the name of kingdom of 'Axe-land', I favor
-- with the Sindarin adapted from the Quenya name  (like
how Sindarin  is influenced by q ).

Travis



[elfling ID#34472]
[original subject:  Sindarin for 'Axe']
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 05:00:00 PM by Traverse Travis »
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Aelindis

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[s] Sindarin for 'Axe'
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2007, 05:00:00 PM »

Traverse Travis wrote:
>
> Thanks for the help everybody. I'm glad to know Tolkien's word
> . Yet for the name of kingdom of 'Axe-land', I favor
>  -- with the Sindarin adapted from the Quenya name
>  (like how Sindarin  is influenced by q
> ).

The trouble is that _pelekko_ (pe12:73) is actually Qenya, and _peleg_
(pe11:64) is Goldogrin. I venture to doubt whether the result of such an
adaptation could be considered as Sindarin.


Regards, Erna



[elfling ID#34473]
[original subject:  Sindarin for 'Axe']
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 05:00:00 PM by Aelindis »
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Traverse Travis

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[s] Sindarin for 'Axe'
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2007, 05:00:00 PM »

Erna wrote:

> The trouble is that _pelekko_ (pe12:73) is actually Qenya, and
_Peleg_
> (Pe11:64) is Goldogrin. I venture to doubt whether the result of
Such
> An adaptation could be considered as Sindarin.

Unless there's an extant Quenya word for axe, I don't see any obstacle
to adapting the Qenya word for use in Neo-Quenya.

I recognize that  is Goldogrin and that Goldogrin (unlike
Noldorin) is not easily adaptable to Sindarin. However,  is
not from the Goldogrin word, but is interpreted as a Sindarin adaptation
of Quenya , similar to Sindarin , adapted from
Quenya .

A name based on  (such as the suggested ) would be
fine, except that I wish to retain the initial /p/ sound in both the
Sindarin and Quenya names, since 'Axe-land' would be Middle-earth's
equivalent of Persia.

Travis



[elfling ID#34475]
[original subject:  Sindarin for 'Axe']
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 05:00:00 PM by Traverse Travis »
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Wiltraud

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[s] Sindarin for 'Axe'
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2007, 05:00:00 PM »

aelindis wrote:


> The trouble is that _pelekko_ (pe12:73) is actually Qenya, and _peleg_
> (pe11:64) is Goldogrin. I venture to doubt whether the result of such
> an adaptation could be considered as Sindarin.


Quite true, I guess. And moreover - why not use an example given by
Tolkien himself? In the Silmarillion we find: Dor-Cúarthol 'Land of Bow
and Helm' (Sil:196)with hyphen and unchanged 'cû'. So I would simply
suggest: Dor-Hathol - 'Land of the Axe'


--
Wiltraud



[elfling ID#34476]
[original subject:  Sindarin for 'Axe']
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 05:00:00 PM by Wiltraud »
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Aelindis

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[s] Sindarin for 'Axe'
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2007, 05:00:00 PM »

Traverse Travis wrote:
>
> Unless there's an extant Quenya word for axe, I don't see any
> obstacle to adapting the Qenya word for use in Neo-Quenya.

Such adaptations seem to be common practice in Neo-Quenya writing. If
there were an extant Quenya word for 'axe', however, Neo-Quenya writers
would probably use that, whereas in all likelihood the Qenya word would
not even appear in Quenya wordlists.

> I recognize that  is Goldogrin and that Goldogrin (unlike
> Noldorin) is not easily adaptable to Sindarin. However,
Is
> Not from the Goldogrin word, but is interpreted as a Sindarin
> adaptation of Quenya , similar to Sindarin ,
> adapted from Quenya .

The adaptation process: 'Qenya = Quenya >  Sindarin' seems implausible
to me in principle, all the more in this case, where there is the extant
word _hathol_.

But don't get me wrong:  I have no intention of suggesting that you
should not use the invented name in your Neo-Sindarin composition, or
whatever it is, if you like the sound of that word.

Regards, Erna



[elfling ID#34477]
[original subject:  Sindarin for 'Axe']
« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 05:00:00 PM by Aelindis »
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Traverse Travis

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[s] Sindarin for 'Axe'
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2007, 05:00:00 PM »

aelindis wrote:
> >
> The adaptation process: 'Qenya = Quenya >  Sindarin' seems
> implausible to me in principle, all the more in this case, where there
> is the extant word _hathol_.

There are two kinds of adaptation involved here. One is an external
adoption (in the Primary World) of a Qenya word as Quenya, simply so
that there is a Quenya word for 'axe'.

The other adaptation is an internal adaptation, within the frame of the
Secondary World of Middle-earth. This 'Middle-earth Persia' was
apparently named first in Numenorean Quenya as Pelecconore (a
translation of the country's native name) and then a Numenorean
Sindarin name was adapted from the Quenya. This is similar to Greek
 or Latin , with the French  name from the
Latin. This realm would be the home of the RotK's 'Easterlings with
axes' and the Movies' Easterlings. For more see:

'ME-Persia' at http://asp.merp.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?
Mss:6877:cgecmacnhphilemkonmk

'Saruman in the East' at http://asp.merp.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?
Mss:6929:fhodmkjbmjkddpmodani

'Using the Homelands Gazetteer (Chy, for example)' at
http://asp.merp.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?
Mss:6940:eikpeaclhgnafbamghgg

The username is 'merparc' and the password is 'merplist'.

In the end, as you suggest, when subcreating in Middle-earth, it comes
down to phonoaesthetic preferrence.

Travis



[elfling ID#34478]
[original subject:  Sindarin for 'Axe']
« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 05:00:00 PM by Traverse Travis »
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Traverse Travis

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[s] Sindarin for 'Axe'
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2007, 05:00:00 PM »

Wiltraud wrote:
> Why not use an example given by Tolkien himself? In the Silmarillion
> we find: Dor-Cúarthol 'Land of Bow and Helm' (Sil:196)with hyphen
> and unchanged 'cû'. So I would simply suggest: Dor-Hathol - 'Land of
> the Axe'

This is a fine name. I might change my mind someday and prefer Hathol>  Instead of .

However, right now, it seems best for the Sindarin name to be modeled on
the Quenya name, for (admittedly artistic, rather than scientific)
phonoaesthetic reasons. Besides the previously mentioned reason (having
a name that phonetically evokes 'Persia'), I see Pelegnor as one of the
three main realms of Rhun, so it seems fitting for the Sindarin name to
have a similar form as those of the two main realms of the Westlands:
Arnor and Gondor. Also, using q  and a Sindarin adaptation
thereof, ties into the Greek and Sanskrit words for 'axe'  and
, and old names for Persia: Sanskrit , Akkadian
, and Old Persian . And I venture to suggest that
*within* the Secondary World, the Indo-European word *  (and
Akkadian  and Sumerian ) ultimately came from a
Quendian source.

Pelegnor ties into all of this in a way that Dor-Hathol, Hatholdor,
Hatholien, Hatholiand, or Ard Chathol don'T.

Travis



[elfling ID#34479]
[original subject:  Sindarin for 'Axe']
« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 05:00:00 PM by Traverse Travis »
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