Elfling

No, sorry; it was a broken cookie on my computer. [...] Well, loads of
thanks to Helge, for putting in all the work you do, so that the rest of
us can have free up-to-date wordlists one mouse-click away! I'll just
have to be quicker printing them out next time *hitting myself*. Or,
Helge, is there an easy way to find all the additions and emendations?
Like, they all have 'vt:47' as a reference? (Or are all written in red
or bold type, sorry, just wishing.)

Be well, Pernilla

Lindamus wrote:
> Seems that your isp or your connection is using a cache file for you.
> Try shift-click the refresh button for the download link. [...]



[elfling ID#32383]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]

>  The most important additions certainly have 'vt47' as their
>  reference. Yet I often tinker with these wordlists, involving all
>  sorts of minor additions, rearrangements or re-phrasing here and
>  there. I can't keep a of record of such things. If people are really
>  interested, there is software available that can trace all changes
>  made to a file.

Try to use red colour whenever you add something, till your next
update.. Just a simple notion which I am sure everyone with higher iq
than me could have thought of

What would prevent you from this?










[elfling ID#32420]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]

Thanks for the up-date!

I scanned through the file and I came upon the _matumnë_ entry. Now I
must admit I do not own vt48, so all the info I have comes from your
wordlist. For memory's sake, it reads:

'*Mat*- /vb./ 'Eat' /(mat, vt45:32)/, also given as *mata*- /(vt39:5)/,
pa.T. *Mantë* 'ate' /(vt39:7)/. The form *matumnë* is said to be
future-past: 'was going to eat', with the 'oq' (Old Quenya?) future-past
element *umnë* /(vt48:32)/. It is not clear if the form *matumnë* is
itself 'Old Quenya' as if this is an archaic future-past formation, or
it is just *umnë* (as an independent word) that is archaic. (Note:
Tolkien's translation of *matumnë* is actually '/I/ was going to eat',
but the pronoun 'I' does not seem to be expressed in the Quenya form.) '

I was wondering: are we certain 'I' is not included in _(mat)umnë_? Is
it explicitely written in vt and/or in Tolkien's writing? Because when
I look at this other entry:

'*Mel*- /vb./ 'Love (as friend)' /(mel)/; *melánë/ /*'I love', a
doubtful word in Tolkien's later Quenya; read perhaps **mélanyë* or
**melanyë* /(lr:70)/ '

I cannot help wondering if the word could not be split into _mat-um-në_
(eat, future-past, I). Would it make any sense?

Thanks a lot,

--Terry



[elfling ID#33145]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]

 Thorsten Renk wrote:

> (...)
>
>
> > I was wondering: are we certain 'I' is not included in _(mat)umnë_?
> > Is it explicitely written in vt and/or in Tolkien's writing?
> > Because when I look at this other entry:
> >
> > '*Mel*- /vb./ 'Love (as friend)' /(mel)/; *melánë/ /*'I love', a
> > doubtful word in Tolkien's later Quenya; read perhaps **mélanyë* or
> > **melanyë* /(lr:70)/ '
> >
> > I cannot help wondering if the word could not be split into
> > _mat-um-në_ (eat, future-past, I). Would it make any sense?
>
>
> I suppose Lambengolmor message #881 and the following discussion
> would be relevant. The same question has been addressed there in
> some detail.
>
Thanks for pointing it out! That message had somehow slipped by me (I
searched Elfling but forgot to check Lambengolmor). At least I'm not
the only one, who suspected this.

--Terry



[elfling ID#33154]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]

A few days ago I uploaded new versions of my Quenya wordlists:

http://Http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/eng-quen.rtf
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/quen-eng.rtf

The main addition is in the English-Quenya list: the new words from
vt48. (As usual, I largely ignore struck-out words in this wordlist,
though they are included, in brackets, in the Quenya-English list.)

In addition I've cleaned up some things, trying to make the lists more
user-friendly. For instance, formerly the entry for 'mast' listed the
words _tyulma_ and _ferna_ with little extra information, but these
terms are of course entirely distinct: _tyulma_ is a mast on a ship,
whereas _ferna_ is 'mast' in the sense of beechnuts! Now I've added the
proper annotation.

Evenstar, when working out the newly-announced French translation of my
Quenya-English list, helped me by identifying various errors and
ambiguities that I've been able to fix in this version: Thanks!
Sometimes a verb had been classified as a noun, and so on. (Yeah, the
difference _should_ be obvious, but in 121 pages of wordlist some errors
are bound to creep in...)

A while ago, a member of the Transcription Team complained (well, he did
at least note) that not all the Quenya names in the genealogical table
in ut:210 were included in the Quenya-English list. He will undoubtedly
be delighted to find that they have now been added.

I've also started adding certain terms from the early sources that seem
particularly 'useful' (I.E., we have no later term for the same). During
the Omentielva Minya, people were sometimes consulting my wordlists (as
printed by the Swedes). I almost felt guilty when people searched in
vain for a word, at least when I knew that it actually occurred in the
ql or some other source. For instance, I distinctly remember one person
trying to find a word for 'box' (noun). It was not in my wordlist at the
time, but I seemed to remember that a word for 'box' occurred in some
earlier source. Sure enough, we have _kolka_ (colca) in the ql, and now
I've added it to my lists as well.

But I don't intend to ever work into these wordlists all the 'Qenya'
words from the early material, only the tiny fraction that seems
particularly useful and that still fits the later incarnations of the
language. I would be happy to receive suggestions regarding 'Qenya'
words that should be added, because people have needed them in their own
compositions. In that way we would be able to identify the terms that
have the greatest practical interest.

- Hkf



[elfling ID#33437]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]

 Sorry about the slow response; birthday celebrations etc. had to be
 given some attention. Thorsten Renk asked, regarding my latest
 wordlist update:

> What I would like to know is the following: What is the status
> of Qenya
In the wordlists?

Variable. When I first started compiling these lists, I also included
all that was then available of the Qenya lexicon, namely the words
mentioned in the appendices to lt1 and lt2. If the entire Qenya lexicon
had then been available, I probably would not have bothered. I would
have indexed it separately, as I later did, and I would only have
carried selected vocabulary items over into my own wordlists. But as
things are, I don't see much point in deleting the words from lt1/lt2
from my current wordlists.

> Does the fact that a Qenya word is included automatically imply
> Helge's
Judgement that the word is compatible with lotr material, does imply a
recommendation to use the word, or is there no such implication?

Some of the words from lt1/lt2 I definitely don't recommend. For
instance, in the entry happy in Quenyanna I do mention the early term
_valin_, but as my annotation indicates, this is hardly a good word to
use if one aims for LotR-style Quenya. The word _valin_ connects with
an early concept where _Valar_ was interpreted as the 'happy ones',
but this idea was rejected later (as we know, _Valar_ came to mean
'Powers' instead).

As for such 'useful' words that I might add from later material, I may
regard them as the best options that are _currently available_, but in a
larger perspective they may function as mere place-holders for later
terms which we must hope will eventually be published. The current form
of the entry thousand may illustrate what I mean:

> Thousand: No term is yet known for LotR-style Quenya; in one
> version of
Early 'Qenya' this numeral was _húmë_ (pe13:50). Pl. _Húmi_ is attested
(used after other numbers, as in 'two thousand', I.E. 'two thousands').
In later Sindarin the word was apparently _meneg_ (as in Menegroth, the
Thousand Caves). The Quenya cognate has been theorized to be *_mencë_,
but _húmë_ may be used until a later term becomes available.

(Unquote myself.) I doubt very much that _húme_ was Tolkien's final
decision for the numeral '1000', but this is what we've got at present.
If, eventually,  one or more later terms turn up in Tolkien's writings,
my wordlist will be updated accordingly (and the later term will then be
listed first, though there will remain a note to the effect that the
word _húme_ occurs in early material). That is all, really.

> The reason I'm asking is that I have met people justifying the
> use of any
Qenya vocabulary item in the list arguing that the list presence
means that Helge recommends such use, and I'd like to know if this
is true or not.

'Recommends' would often be too strong a word, as should be evident from
the examples above. Rather I may simply present the available options to
people using the wordlist, and leave any further decisions to the users
themselves.

- Hkf



[elfling ID#33453]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]

>  Now, be honest, Helge, if we'd had more publications this year would
>  you or Petri, or Thorsten have had time to absorb them and revise
>  everything, or would you not have felt pressured by the effort of
>  trying to keep up?

I can only answer for myself, but I would not have managed to cope with
much new material - it took me the better part of the year to bring the
courses more or less up to date.

Well, I know I am repeating myself, but plenty of the early material,
say Gnomish or the Qenya lexicon, is hardly analyzed at all. I have
some material for intensification in Qenya for example which I never
managed to write up properly, and there is much more to be found. So
we're not really doing well with material that has been around for
quite some time.

Regards,

* Thorsten



[elfling ID#35197]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]