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Author Topic: Wordlist Update  (Read 2685 times)

Helge Klåre Fauskanger

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Wordlist Update
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2005, 05:00:00 PM »

I recently announced an updated version of my Quenya-English wordlist,
and Pernilla Leijonhufvud responded:

> When I download the new list, it still says 'Wordlist last updated May
17Th, 2005', and _mai_ is glossed as 'if'... Is there something wrong
with my computer?

I hope not. I tried the link myself, and it is definitely the new
version that is now available. Others report they are able to download
it as well:

http://Http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/quen-eng.rtf

- Hkf



[elfling ID#32375]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]
« Last Edit: September 18, 2005, 05:00:00 PM by Helge Klåre Fauskanger »
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Lindamus

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Wordlist Update
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2005, 05:00:00 PM »

Seems that your isp or your connection is using a cache file for you.
Try shift-click the refresh button for the download link.


> [...]I tried the link myself, and it is definitely the new version
> that is now available. Others report they are able to download it
> as well:
>
> http://Http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/quen-eng.rtf
>
> - Hkf



[elfling ID#32376]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]
« Last Edit: September 18, 2005, 05:00:00 PM by Lindamus »
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Pernilla Leijonhufvud

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Wordlist Update
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2005, 05:00:00 PM »

No, sorry; it was a broken cookie on my computer. [...] Well, loads of
thanks to Helge, for putting in all the work you do, so that the rest of
us can have free up-to-date wordlists one mouse-click away! I'll just
have to be quicker printing them out next time *hitting myself*. Or,
Helge, is there an easy way to find all the additions and emendations?
Like, they all have 'vt:47' as a reference? (Or are all written in red
or bold type, sorry, just wishing.) ;)

Be well, Pernilla

Lindamus wrote:
> Seems that your isp or your connection is using a cache file for you.
> Try shift-click the refresh button for the download link. [...]



[elfling ID#32383]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]
« Last Edit: September 19, 2005, 05:00:00 PM by Pernilla Leijonhufvud »
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Helge Klåre Fauskanger

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Wordlist Update
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2005, 05:00:00 PM »

Pernilla Leijonhufvud wrote:

> Or, Helge, is there an easy way to find all the additions and
Emendations? Like, they all have 'vt:47' as a reference? (Or are all
written in red or bold type, sorry, just wishing.) ;)

The most important additions certainly have 'vt47' as their reference.
Yet I often tinker with these wordlists, involving all sorts of minor
additions, rearrangements or re-phrasing here and there. I can't keep a
of record of such things. If people are really interested, there is
software available that can trace all changes made to a file.

Some people ask me whether I can provide some kind of list of all
changes, so that they can add them to their printed versions of my
wordlists (in pencil?!). I understand that it is frustrating for those
who make hard-copy versions that after a while, such versions become
partially 'obsolete'. (Apparently some people make quite nice-looking,
bound 'books' of this material!)

Since Tolkien is no longer among us and his work is a finite mass of
manuscripts, it would ideally speaking be possible to work out final and
definite dictionaries for his languages. But given the woefully
incomplete status of the publication project, this is still a remote
dream only.

Maybe Petri, who has provided me with lists of the new material
appearing in recent issues of vt, will consider making these lists
available to the general public as well. That is all I can say.

- Hkf



[elfling ID#32416]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]
« Last Edit: September 23, 2005, 05:00:00 PM by Helge Klåre Fauskanger »
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Gildor Inglorion

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Wordlist Update
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2005, 05:00:00 PM »

>  The most important additions certainly have 'vt47' as their
>  reference. Yet I often tinker with these wordlists, involving all
>  sorts of minor additions, rearrangements or re-phrasing here and
>  there. I can't keep a of record of such things. If people are really
>  interested, there is software available that can trace all changes
>  made to a file.

Try to use red colour whenever you add something, till your next
update.. Just a simple notion which I am sure everyone with higher iq
than me could have thought of :)

What would prevent you from this?










[elfling ID#32420]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]
« Last Edit: September 23, 2005, 05:00:00 PM by Gildor Inglorion »
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Helge Klåre Fauskanger

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Wordlist Update
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2006, 05:00:00 PM »

I have updated my Quenya-English wordlist with words from VT48:

http://Http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/quen-eng.rtf

A pdf version by Evenstar is already available:

http://Http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/quen-eng.pdf

- Hkf



[elfling ID#33144]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]
« Last Edit: April 07, 2006, 05:00:00 PM by Helge Klåre Fauskanger »
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Terry Dock

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Wordlist Update
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2006, 05:00:00 PM »

Thanks for the up-date!

I scanned through the file and I came upon the _matumnë_ entry. Now I
must admit I do not own vt48, so all the info I have comes from your
wordlist. For memory's sake, it reads:

'*Mat*- /vb./ 'Eat' /(mat, vt45:32)/, also given as *mata*- /(vt39:5)/,
pa.T. *Mantë* 'ate' /(vt39:7)/. The form *matumnë* is said to be
future-past: 'was going to eat', with the 'oq' (Old Quenya?) future-past
element *umnë* /(vt48:32)/. It is not clear if the form *matumnë* is
itself 'Old Quenya' as if this is an archaic future-past formation, or
it is just *umnë* (as an independent word) that is archaic. (Note:
Tolkien's translation of *matumnë* is actually '/I/ was going to eat',
but the pronoun 'I' does not seem to be expressed in the Quenya form.) '

I was wondering: are we certain 'I' is not included in _(mat)umnë_? Is
it explicitely written in vt and/or in Tolkien's writing? Because when
I look at this other entry:

'*Mel*- /vb./ 'Love (as friend)' /(mel)/; *melánë/ /*'I love', a
doubtful word in Tolkien's later Quenya; read perhaps **mélanyë* or
**melanyë* /(lr:70)/ '

I cannot help wondering if the word could not be split into _mat-um-në_
(eat, future-past, I). Would it make any sense?

Thanks a lot,

--Terry



[elfling ID#33145]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]
« Last Edit: April 07, 2006, 05:00:00 PM by Terry Dock »
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Thorsten Renk

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Wordlist Update
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2006, 05:00:00 PM »

(...)
> I was wondering: are we certain 'I' is not included in _(mat)umnë_? Is
> it explicitely written in vt and/or in Tolkien's writing? Because
> when I look at this other entry:
>
> '*Mel*- /vb./ 'Love (as friend)' /(mel)/; *melánë/ /*'I love', a
> doubtful word in Tolkien's later Quenya; read perhaps **mélanyë* or
> **melanyë* /(lr:70)/ '
>
> I cannot help wondering if the word could not be split into
> _mat-um-në_ (eat, future-past, I). Would it make any sense?


I suppose Lambengolmor message #881 and the following discussion would
be relevant. The same question has been addressed there in some detail.

* Thorsten



[elfling ID#33153]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 05:00:00 PM by Thorsten Renk »
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Terry Dock

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Wordlist Update
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2006, 05:00:00 PM »

 Thorsten Renk wrote:

> (...)
>
>
> > I was wondering: are we certain 'I' is not included in _(mat)umnë_?
> > Is it explicitely written in vt and/or in Tolkien's writing?
> > Because when I look at this other entry:
> >
> > '*Mel*- /vb./ 'Love (as friend)' /(mel)/; *melánë/ /*'I love', a
> > doubtful word in Tolkien's later Quenya; read perhaps **mélanyë* or
> > **melanyë* /(lr:70)/ '
> >
> > I cannot help wondering if the word could not be split into
> > _mat-um-në_ (eat, future-past, I). Would it make any sense?
>
>
> I suppose Lambengolmor message #881 and the following discussion
> would be relevant. The same question has been addressed there in
> some detail.
>
Thanks for pointing it out! That message had somehow slipped by me (I
searched Elfling but forgot to check Lambengolmor). At least I'm not
the only one, who suspected this. :)

--Terry



[elfling ID#33154]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 05:00:00 PM by Terry Dock »
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Tarik Aral

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Wordlist Update
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2006, 05:00:00 PM »

Thorsten Renk wrote:    

>
> '*Mel*- /vb./ 'Love (as friend)' /(mel)/; *melánë/ /*'I love', a
> doubtful word in Tolkien's later Quenya; read perhaps **mélanyë* or
> **melanyë* /(lr:70)/ '
>
> I cannot help wondering if the word could not be split into
> _mat-um-në_ (eat, future-past, I). Would it make any sense?

      Mel-: to love

  Melan: I love or I am loveing melin: I love (more correct form, in
  aorist) melane: I loved meluva: I will love emelien: I have loved







------------------------------



[elfling ID#33169]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]
« Last Edit: April 15, 2006, 05:00:00 PM by Tarik Aral »
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Helge Klåre Fauskanger

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Wordlist Update
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2006, 05:00:00 PM »

A few days ago I uploaded new versions of my Quenya wordlists:

http://Http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/eng-quen.rtf
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/quen-eng.rtf

The main addition is in the English-Quenya list: the new words from
vt48. (As usual, I largely ignore struck-out words in this wordlist,
though they are included, in brackets, in the Quenya-English list.)

In addition I've cleaned up some things, trying to make the lists more
user-friendly. For instance, formerly the entry for 'mast' listed the
words _tyulma_ and _ferna_ with little extra information, but these
terms are of course entirely distinct: _tyulma_ is a mast on a ship,
whereas _ferna_ is 'mast' in the sense of beechnuts! Now I've added the
proper annotation.

Evenstar, when working out the newly-announced French translation of my
Quenya-English list, helped me by identifying various errors and
ambiguities that I've been able to fix in this version: Thanks!
Sometimes a verb had been classified as a noun, and so on. (Yeah, the
difference _should_ be obvious, but in 121 pages of wordlist some errors
are bound to creep in...)

A while ago, a member of the Transcription Team complained (well, he did
at least note) that not all the Quenya names in the genealogical table
in ut:210 were included in the Quenya-English list. He will undoubtedly
be delighted to find that they have now been added.

I've also started adding certain terms from the early sources that seem
particularly 'useful' (I.E., we have no later term for the same). During
the Omentielva Minya, people were sometimes consulting my wordlists (as
printed by the Swedes). I almost felt guilty when people searched in
vain for a word, at least when I knew that it actually occurred in the
ql or some other source. For instance, I distinctly remember one person
trying to find a word for 'box' (noun). It was not in my wordlist at the
time, but I seemed to remember that a word for 'box' occurred in some
earlier source. Sure enough, we have _kolka_ (colca) in the ql, and now
I've added it to my lists as well.

But I don't intend to ever work into these wordlists all the 'Qenya'
words from the early material, only the tiny fraction that seems
particularly useful and that still fits the later incarnations of the
language. I would be happy to receive suggestions regarding 'Qenya'
words that should be added, because people have needed them in their own
compositions. In that way we would be able to identify the terms that
have the greatest practical interest.

- Hkf



[elfling ID#33437]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]
« Last Edit: August 11, 2006, 05:00:00 PM by Helge Klåre Fauskanger »
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Thorsten Renk

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Wordlist Update
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2006, 05:00:00 PM »

First, my thanks to Helge for maintaining the wordlists - they are a
very valuable resource not only for composition but also for
scholarly analysis.

The following has potential to be somehwat controversial, so I'm
writing this without the intention of starting discussion on the
appropriateness of including Qenya in Neo-Quenya texts.

Helge wrote:

'I've also started adding certain terms from the early sources that
seem particularly 'useful' (I.E., we have no later term for the same).'
Whereas on his site I find

'As for Tolkien's earliest 'Qenya' as described in the 'Qenya lexicon'
of 1915, no attempt has been made to include all of this material -
partly because some of it is clearly not LotR-compatible, and partly
because it is readily available in Parma Eldalamberon #12 (complete
indices to the 'Qenya lexicon' are available on Ardalambion). However,
the 'Qenya' words cited by Christopher Tolkien in the appendices to The
Book of Lost Tales, volume 1 and 2, are included in the wordlists here
provided.'

What I would like to know is the following: What is the status of Qenya
in the wordlists? Does the fact that a Qenya word is included
automatically imply Helge's judgement that the word is compatible with
lotr material, does imply a recommendation to use the word, or is there
no such implication? From the statement on the website I gather that
_all_ Qenya from lt1,lt2 (and probably the gl as well) is included
automatically whereas a selection based on usefulness and compatibility
has been made only for additional Qenya vocabulary items. Is this a
correct interpretation?

The reason I'm asking is that I have met people justifying the use of
any Qenya vocabulary item in the list arguing that the list presence
means that Helge recommends such use, and I'd like to know if this is
true or not.

Thanks for clarifying!

* Thorsten



[elfling ID#33440]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 05:00:00 PM by Thorsten Renk »
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Helge Klåre Fauskanger

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Wordlist Update
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2006, 05:00:00 PM »

 Sorry about the slow response; birthday celebrations etc. had to be
 given some attention. Thorsten Renk asked, regarding my latest
 wordlist update:

> What I would like to know is the following: What is the status
> of Qenya
In the wordlists?

Variable. When I first started compiling these lists, I also included
all that was then available of the Qenya lexicon, namely the words
mentioned in the appendices to lt1 and lt2. If the entire Qenya lexicon
had then been available, I probably would not have bothered. I would
have indexed it separately, as I later did, and I would only have
carried selected vocabulary items over into my own wordlists. But as
things are, I don't see much point in deleting the words from lt1/lt2
from my current wordlists.

> Does the fact that a Qenya word is included automatically imply
> Helge's
Judgement that the word is compatible with lotr material, does imply a
recommendation to use the word, or is there no such implication?

Some of the words from lt1/lt2 I definitely don't recommend. For
instance, in the entry happy in Quenyanna I do mention the early term
_valin_, but as my annotation indicates, this is hardly a good word to
use if one aims for LotR-style Quenya. The word _valin_ connects with
an early concept where _Valar_ was interpreted as the 'happy ones',
but this idea was rejected later (as we know, _Valar_ came to mean
'Powers' instead).

As for such 'useful' words that I might add from later material, I may
regard them as the best options that are _currently available_, but in a
larger perspective they may function as mere place-holders for later
terms which we must hope will eventually be published. The current form
of the entry thousand may illustrate what I mean:

> Thousand: No term is yet known for LotR-style Quenya; in one
> version of
Early 'Qenya' this numeral was _húmë_ (pe13:50). Pl. _Húmi_ is attested
(used after other numbers, as in 'two thousand', I.E. 'two thousands').
In later Sindarin the word was apparently _meneg_ (as in Menegroth, the
Thousand Caves). The Quenya cognate has been theorized to be *_mencë_,
but _húmë_ may be used until a later term becomes available.

(Unquote myself.) I doubt very much that _húme_ was Tolkien's final
decision for the numeral '1000', but this is what we've got at present.
If, eventually,  one or more later terms turn up in Tolkien's writings,
my wordlist will be updated accordingly (and the later term will then be
listed first, though there will remain a note to the effect that the
word _húme_ occurs in early material). That is all, really.

> The reason I'm asking is that I have met people justifying the
> use of any
Qenya vocabulary item in the list arguing that the list presence
means that Helge recommends such use, and I'd like to know if this
is true or not.

'Recommends' would often be too strong a word, as should be evident from
the examples above. Rather I may simply present the available options to
people using the wordlist, and leave any further decisions to the users
themselves.

- Hkf



[elfling ID#33453]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]
« Last Edit: August 18, 2006, 05:00:00 PM by Helge Klåre Fauskanger »
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Tuilinde

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Wordlist Update
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2008, 05:00:00 PM »

Helge,

Many thanks, no matter what other word lists I have or put together for
my own use, yours is an invaluable resource for double checking the
subtleties of similar words, and checking which period of composition
they belong to.

And many, many thanks also to Petri whose work has kept me going until
you had time to incorporate it all into your list.

Now, be honest, Helge, if we'd had more publications this year would
you or Petri, or Thorsten have had time to absorb them and revise
everything, or would you not have felt pressured by the effort of trying
to keep up?

I'm content with things as they unfold - it enables my less nimble mind
to absorb and hopefully understand what has been given us as the fruits
of the Editorial Team's painstaking time and effort.

Please don't sour the pleasure your work gives us with what often seem
like negative quibbles!

With many thanks again,

Nai elen siluva tielyanna!

Tuilinde



[elfling ID#35186]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]
« Last Edit: December 25, 2008, 05:00:00 PM by Tuilinde »
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Thorsten Renk

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Wordlist Update
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2008, 05:00:00 PM »

>  Now, be honest, Helge, if we'd had more publications this year would
>  you or Petri, or Thorsten have had time to absorb them and revise
>  everything, or would you not have felt pressured by the effort of
>  trying to keep up?

I can only answer for myself, but I would not have managed to cope with
much new material - it took me the better part of the year to bring the
courses more or less up to date.

Well, I know I am repeating myself, but plenty of the early material,
say Gnomish or the Qenya lexicon, is hardly analyzed at all. I have
some material for intensification in Qenya for example which I never
managed to write up properly, and there is much more to be found. So
we're not really doing well with material that has been around for
quite some time.

Regards,

* Thorsten



[elfling ID#35197]
[original subject: Wordlist Update]
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 05:00:00 PM by Thorsten Renk »
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