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Author Topic: Certhas 13 - 17 and 23 - 28  (Read 867 times)

Jay Lawson

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Certhas 13 - 17 and 23 - 28
« on: July 23, 2011, 05:00:00 PM »

Hello everyone!

It has been a number of years since I have subscribed to or posted on
Elfling.  However, I occasionally read through messages on the Yahoo
group archive.  Recently, I've done some reading about the Certhas
Daeron, and I have a few questions about them and the phonologies they
represent.

In appendix e, Tolkien writes that 'The principal additions, however,
the introductions of two new series, 13-17, and 23-28, were actually
most probably inventions of the Noldor of Eregion, since they were used
for the representation of sounds not found in Sindarin.'  My questions
are these:

1)  23-28 are apparently a labialized velar series.  These sound are
    all found within Quenya, correct?  Also, do they appear in
    Sindarin at all?

2)  13-16 would, at first glance, appear to be a postalveolar series.
    However, Tolkien says that 'ch is only used to represent the sound
    heard in *bach* (in German or Welsh), not that in English *church*.'
    This is repeated several times throughout the appendix. The only
    indication that 13 & 14 are postalveolar affricates /tʃ dʒ/ is that
    they are found in this particular series.  Is this an example of an
    inconsistency by Tolkien or is there another explanation?

3)  13 is, to my knowledge, used by Sindarin and also Quenya.  If it is
    used by Sindarin, that would contradict the idea that the series was
    added for sounds not found in Sindarin.  Am I correct that 13 is
    used in Sindarin?

4)  What exactly is 17 [nj] ?  Is this a common consonant cluster?  If
    so, is it found in one of the Middle-earth languages we know about?
    Or, is it a palatal nasal /ɲ/ or palatalized alveolar nasal /nʲ/ or
    something else?

5)  Are the sounds of 13-17 found at all in Sindarin or Quenya?

Thank you for any replies.

Jay



[elfling ID#36089]
[original subject: Certhas 13 - 17 and 23 - 28]
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 05:00:00 PM by Jay Lawson »
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Palatinus

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Certhas 13 - 17 and 23 - 28
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2011, 05:00:00 PM »

Hi. Perhaps this page might help you?

http://Http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Angerthas_Daeron

The table is arranged in a way to show the relationship between
pronunciation and cirth shapes

> 1)23-28 are apparently a labialized velar series.  These sound are
>   all found within Quenya, correct?  Also, do they appear in Sindarin
>   at all?


They aren't found in Quenya exactly, specifically 'gw' and 'ghw'.
Quenya has no 'gw' by itself, only 'ngw';


'Gw' appears in Sindarin but 'ghw' doesn't


> 2)13-16 would, at first glance, appear to be a postalveolar series.
>   However, Tolkien says that 'ch is only used to represent the sound
>   heard in *bach* (in German or Welsh), not that in English *church*.'
>   This is repeated several times throughout the appendix. The only
>   indication that 13 & 14 are postalveolar affricates /tʃ dʒ/ is that
>   they are found in this particular series.  Is this an example of an
>   inconsistency by Tolkien or is there another explanation?

You are correct that they are postalveolar. I wouldn't call it an
inconsistency though. The statement 'ch as in German or Welsh' refers
to the spelling used for the names in the narrative. In the Certhas
table (which is not part of the narrative) he uses a different
convention because they represent a system more complex than Elvish.


> 3)13 is, to my knowledge, used by Sindarin and also Quenya.  If it is
>   used by Sindarin, that would contradict the idea that the series was
>   added for sounds not found in Sindarin.  Am I correct that 13 is
>   used in Sindarin?

No; as you noted 13 represents /tʃ/ and this sound is not found
in Sindarin.


> 4)What exactly is 17 [nj] ?  Is this a common consonant cluster?  If
>   so, is it found in one of the Middle-earth languages we know about?
>   Or, is it a palatal nasal /ɲ/ or palatalized alveolar nasal /nʲ/ or
>   something else?

Judging by its shape (consult the table in the link I gave you) it
represents a sound midway between front /n/ and back /ŋ/. I think you
could spell it as /ɲ/. Unfortunately I don't know the exact
phonological term to describe it. As far as I know it's not used in the
known languages, but one would guess that it might occur in Dwarvish or
some Mannish or even Avarin language.


>
> 5)Are the sounds of 13-17 found at all in Sindarin or Quenya?

No but they are found in 3rd Age Westron, although I am not sure about
17.



[elfling ID#36090]
[original subject: Certhas 13 - 17 and 23 - 28]
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 05:00:00 PM by Palatinus »
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Mithrennaith

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Certhas 13 - 17 and 23 - 28
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2011, 05:00:00 PM »

 Hello Jay,

Normally I'm also a long-standing lurker on this list. And at the
moment I have nothing to add to Palatinus' useful replies.

But I breaking my usual silence to mention the existence of
elfling2@yahoogroups.com  , in case
you are not already aware of it. It might be useful to post your
question there again, as that list is especially intended for discussion
of Tolkienian scripts, whereas this list is more specifically intended
for languages. I note, however, that your question rather straddles the
border between both.

Kind regards, Harm.


Jay Lawson wrote:
>
> Hello everyone!
>
> It has been a number of years since I have subscribed to or posted on
> Elfling. However, I occasionally read through messages on the Yahoo
Group
> Archive. Recently, I've done some reading about the Certhas Daeron,
And I
> Have a few questions about them and the phonologies they represent.
>
> .....







[elfling ID#36091]
[original subject: Certhas 13 - 17 and 23 - 28]
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 05:00:00 PM by Mithrennaith »
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Jay Lawson

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Certhas 13 - 17 and 23 - 28
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2011, 05:00:00 PM »

Hi Palatinus-

Thank you much for the reply.  I found it extremely helpful in getting
more familiar with the Angerthas, as well as Sindarin & Quenya phonology
and Tolkien's transliteration conventions.  I appreciate the help.  My
replies (and further questions!) to your individual points:



> Hi. Perhaps this page might help you?
>
> http://Http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Angerthas_Daeron
>
> The table is arranged in a way to show the relationship between
Pronunciation and cirth shapes

Yes, that is quite useful!




> > 1)  23-28 are apparently a labialized velar series.  These sound are
> >     all found within Quenya, correct?  Also, do they appear in
> >     Sindarin at all?
>
> They aren't found in Quenya exactly, specifically 'gw' and
> 'ghw'. Quenya
Has no 'gw' by itself, only 'ngw';
>
> 'Gw' appears in Sindarin but 'ghw' doesn't

I read the following in the 1st lesson of Helge's Quenya course:
'Besides the palatalized consonants, we have the labialized consonants:
nw, gw and qu (= cw).'  I would assume then that Quenya does have gw
/gʷ/, unless there is something I am missing something that rules it
out?  Edit:  I just found it: 'In fact, gw occurs only in that position,
and always in the combination ngw (not 'ñw' but 'ñgw', still using 'ñ'
as Tolkien did):'.  From that, I gather than ngw is more of a consonant
cluster than a true phoneme, ie /ŋgʷ/, which is to say that there is a
simple phonotactic rule saying that /gʷ/ must always follow /ŋ/.

So far, I see nothing indicating that Quenya has gh /ɣ/ or ghw /ɣʷ/.  It
also doesn't seem to have kh /x/, other than that it changed to
eventually become h /h/, which is is some positions (before a [t]) still
pronounced as /x/.  Nw /nʷ/ appears in Quenya and is only at the start
of words, and used to be the labialized velar nasal /ŋʷ/.

From what I can tell, Sindarin seems to have had the same set of
orthographical values as Quenya: that is kw, gw, ngw, nw, but no khw or
ghw.  The difference is that they are all consonant clusters in
Sindarin, rather than being true labialized consonants.

I'm basing this on what I have read so far on Ardalambion, as well as
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Sindarin,
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/sindarin_phonetics.htm, and
http://your-Sindarin-textbook.realelvish.net/.  I hope they are all
accurate.  At the least, I do trust Ryszard Derdzinski's page, since I
am familiar with his name.  Do feel free to correct anything I've
stated, since I am actually quite new to learning the Elvish tongues.




> You are correct that they are postalveolar. I wouldn't call it an
Inconsistency though. The statement 'ch as in German or Welsh' refers
to the spelling used for the names in the narrative. In the Certhas
table (which is not part of the narrative) he uses a different
convention because they represent a system more complex than Elvish.

Got it, and it makes sense.




> No; as you noted 13 represents /tʃ/ and this sound is not found in
Sindarin.

Since you mention the different system of transliteration above, I
understand this now.




> > 4)  What exactly is 17 [nj] ?  Is this a common consonant cluster?
> >     If
So,
> > Is it found in one of the Middle-earth languages we know about?
> > Or, is
It a
> > Palatal nasal /ɲ/ or palatalized alveolar nasal /nʲ/ or
> > something else?
>
> Judging by its shape (consult the table in the link I gave you) it
Represents a sound midway between front /n/ and back /ŋ/. I think you
could spell it as /ɲ/. Unfortunately I don't know the exact
phonological term to describe it. As far as I know it's not used in the
known languages, but one would guess that it might occur in Dwarvish or
some Mannish or even Avarin language.

If it is indeed 'midway between front /n/ and back /ŋ/', then yes, it's
logical that it would be /ɲ/ which is a palatal nasal. What gives me
pause is the difference in #22 ŋ vs. #33 ng.  It looks like ng is
pronounced as /ŋ/ at the start of a word and with an audible /g/
medially, as /ŋg/.  Is this correct, and is that the only difference
between ŋ ang ng? Additionally, since the series #13-17 was created for
sounds outside Sindarin, and since Quenya has a set of palatalized
consonants, why would only nj (ny in Quenya transliteration for the
narrative?) appear when Quenya has others such as ty and ly?  I don't
see any method for the certhas to indicate palatalization the way the
Dwarves added a sign to indicate aspiration.




> > 5)  Are the sounds of 13-17 found at all in Sindarin or Quenya?
>
> No but they are found in 3rd Age Westron, although I am not sure
> about 17.

I'm not sure if Westron was around yet at the time of the Elves of
Eregion. From what I gather, Adunaic would have been around, and would
have started to influence whatever tongues of Men were spoken in
northwest Middle-earth, along with Sindarin.  So, Westron may have been
in a sort of pre-natal stage.  I could see 13-17 being in Adunaic,
Khuzdul, or whatever Mannish tongues were around.  I don't see evidence
of them in Adunaic, and I'm not even sure what Mannish tongues existed
then.  Taliska was more of a 1st Age language, was it not?  Khuzdul is a
definite possibility, although it seems odd since Hebrew & Arabic (the
most likely inspirations for Khuzdul) don't have ch or j /tʃ dʒ/, other
than through loan words of other languages. Yiddish does have them,
though, so maybe that influenced Tolkien to include them in Khuzdul.



Thanks again!



[elfling ID#36092]
[original subject: Certhas 13 - 17 and 23 - 28]
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 05:00:00 PM by Jay Lawson »
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Mithrennaith

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Certhas 13 - 17 and 23 - 28
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2011, 05:00:00 PM »

 Eh, what has happened here?

That should be elfscript2@yahoogroups.com
  !

I know I started to write 'elfscript', then went to check my groups
for the correct address, which made me realise that as the elfscript
list was overrun with spam long ago, after its originator abandoned it
without trace or appointing a successor, the elfscript2 list was created
to take its place. How that turned into 'elfling2' I have no idea!

Apologies for wrongfooting any reader here, especially Jay!

P.S. Somewhere at the back of my mind the impression lurks that there
     once was an elfling2. Whether or not that is a figment of my
     imagination, it certainly doesn't exist now. Nor would the very
     basic description I gave for elfscript2 have fitted it. Hjs


Harm.J.schelhaas wrote:
>
>
> Hello Jay,
>
> .....
>
> But I breaking my usual silence to mention the existence of
> elfling2@yahoogroups.com You
> Are not already aware of it. It might be useful to post your question
> there again, as that list is especially intended for discussion of
> Tolkienian scripts, whereas this list is more specifically intended
For
> Languages. I note, however, that your question rather straddles the
> border between both.
>
> Kind regards, Harm.
>








[elfling ID#36093]
[original subject: Certhas 13 - 17 and 23 - 28]
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 05:00:00 PM by Mithrennaith »
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