Elfling

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

SMF - Just Installed!

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6

Author Topic: Ainulindale  (Read 5356 times)

Rínon Lindalion

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 57
    • View Profile
Ainulindale
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

<<**There is _haarar_ in co and Tolkien translated it as 'are sitting'.
According to what we know _haara_ is the present continuative, the
aorist would be *_hare_, the root _har-_. Therefore such the
preterites.> >

But can we be certain it isn't a derived verb _haara_?  Would this not
give the same attested _haarar_ in pres. Pl.?

<<**No, I meant _uumer_. In Etym there is the stem ugu or umu which
gives _umin_ 'I am not, I do not' and _uume_ is its pa.T.. It is assumed
that these words can used for negatives.> >

My apologies.  I noticed this word about two seconds after I sent my
last reply.

<<**Yes, it is will be untranslatable. We absolutely do not know how to
form the comparatives.> >

Most unfortunate.



[elfling ID#3793]
[original subject: Ainulindale 1]
« Last Edit: December 03, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by Rínon Lindalion »
Logged

David Kiltz

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 659
    • View Profile
Ainulindale
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

vanlin wrote:

>
> What is a liquid stem?  Is it a basic stem as opposed to one ending in
> -ya or -ta?
/R/ and /l/ are traditionally called 'liquids'. Thus a liquid stem is
one ending in -r or -L.

-David



[elfling ID#3796]
[original subject: Ainulindale 1]
« Last Edit: December 03, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by David Kiltz »
Logged

Lukas Novak

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 628
    • View Profile
Ainulindale
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

> /R/ and /l/ are traditionally called 'liquids'. Thus a liquid stem is
> one ending in -r or -L.


You are right, but I usd this term in a bit wider sense - I.E. including
/m/ and /n/ - it is often that the same rules govern both /l/,/r/ and
/m/, /n/, and therefore theese are called 'liquids', although it is not
strictly right (in Greek there is a similar thing with verbs).

Lukas



[elfling ID#3801]
[original subject: Ainulindale 1]
« Last Edit: December 05, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by Lukas Novak »
Logged

Lukas Novak

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 628
    • View Profile
Ainulindale
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

 > But can we be certain it isn't a derived verb _haara_?  Would this
 > not give the same attested _haarar_ in pres. Pl.?


According to the stuff that was in the last vt, the continuative of the
-a stems shows the ending -ea (resulting out of the dissimilation of
-aa), not -a, as we thought before. But it is not clear, whether this
was Tolkiens stable opinion, or just a 'passing idea' - we have not any
other specimen of thus formed continuative.

Lukas



[elfling ID#3802]
[original subject: Ainulindale 1]
« Last Edit: December 05, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by Lukas Novak »
Logged

David Kiltz

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 659
    • View Profile
Ainulindale
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

Lukas Novak wrote:

>
> > /R/ and /l/ are traditionally called 'liquids'. Thus a liquid stem
> > is one ending in -r or -L.
>
>
> You are right, but I usd this term in a bit wider sense - I.E.
> including /m/ and /n/ - it is often that the same rules govern both
> /l/,/r/ and /m/, /n/, and therefore theese are called 'liquids',
> although it is not strictly right (in Greek there is a similar thing
> with verbs).
>
> Lukas
>
>
Ah, so you mean resonants ? In Indo-European that wd include /y/ and
/w/. 'Govern the same rules', I believe you refer to the fact that (in
I.-E.) these can be either sonantical or asonantical, I.E. capable of
forming a syllable or not. If you mean that, I wd use the term
'resonants' since with liquids proper there are one or two thongs
which work slightly differently. (Besides the fact they share the
above mentioned quality of being syylabic/non-syllabic). However, it
doesn't matter much, as long as one says what one wd like to have
included and what not.

-David



[elfling ID#3803]
[original subject: Ainulindale 1]
« Last Edit: December 05, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by David Kiltz »
Logged

David Kiltz

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 659
    • View Profile
Ainulindale
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

Lukas Novak wrote:

>
> > /R/ and /l/ are traditionally called 'liquids'. Thus a liquid stem
> > is one ending in -r or -L.
>
>
> You are right, but I usd this term in a bit wider sense - I.E.
> including /m/ and /n/ - it is often that the same rules govern both
> /l/,/r/ and /m/, /n/, and therefore theese are called 'liquids',
> although it is not strictly right (in Greek there is a similar thing
> with verbs).
>
> Lukas
>
Why not _hare_ 'sits (down)' aorist and _haara_ continuative ? Where is
the problem ?

-David



[elfling ID#3804]
[original subject: Ainulindale 1]
« Last Edit: December 05, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by David Kiltz »
Logged

David Kiltz

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 659
    • View Profile
Ainulindale
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

David Kiltz wrote:

> 'Lukas Novak wrote:
>
> >
> > > /R/ and /l/ are traditionally called 'liquids'. Thus a liquid stem
> > > is one ending in -r or -L.
> >
> >
> > You are right, but I usd this term in a bit wider sense - I.E.
> > including /m/ and /n/ - it is often that the same rules govern both
> > /l/,/r/ and /m/, /n/, and therefore theese are called 'liquids',
> > although it is not strictly right (in Greek there is a similar thing
> > with verbs).
> >
> > Lukas
> >
Why not _hare_ 'sits (down)' aorist and _haara_ continuative ? Where is
the problem ? I mean, why shd it be a derived verb ?

-David
>
>
Oooooops. This -of course- shd have replied to:

> > But can we be certain it isn't a derived verb _haara_?  Would this
> > not give the same attested _haarar_ in pres. Pl.?
>
>
> According to the stuff that was in the last vt, the continuative of
> the -a stems shows the ending -ea (resulting out of the dissimilation
> of -aa), not -a, as we thought before. But it is not clear, whether
> this was Tolkiens stable opinion, or just a 'passing idea' - we have
> not any other specimen of thus formed continuative.
>
> Lukas



[elfling ID#3805]
[original subject: Ainulindale 1]
« Last Edit: December 05, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by David Kiltz »
Logged

Helge Klåre Fauskanger

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Posts: 1071
    • View Profile
Ainulindale
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

>  But can we be certain it isn't a derived verb _haara_?  Would
>  this not
Give the same attested _haarar_ in pres. Pl.?

According to the Old (pre-VT41) Theory on the formation of the present
tense - yes. According to the New Theory - no. A verb _haara-_ would
have the present tense _haarea_, whereas _haara_ would probably be the
aorist. But since Tolkien translated _haarar_ as 'are sitting', I think
we are looking at a continuative/present tense here.

So the verb 'sit' must be _har-_, which would go something like this:

Present tense _haara_ Aorist _hare_ (_hari-_); _hare_ may also function
as infinitive Past tense _harne_ Future tense _haruva_ Perfect _ahaarie_
Active participle _haarala_ or perhaps _harila_ Gerund _harie_

- Hf



[elfling ID#3807]
[original subject: Ainulindale 1]
« Last Edit: December 04, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by Helge Klåre Fauskanger »
Logged

Lukas Novak

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 628
    • View Profile
Ainulindale
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

> Why not _hare_ 'sits (down)' aorist and _haara_ continuative ? Where
> is the problem ?


Nowhere - This is what I wanted to be understood as implied by what I
had written - 'haarar' cannot be a continuative of an -a stem, for it
would be 'haarear', so it must be a continuative of a consonant stem (as
continuative it surely is).

Lukas



[elfling ID#3813]
[original subject: Ainulindale 1]
« Last Edit: December 05, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by Lukas Novak »
Logged

Lukas Novak

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 628
    • View Profile
Ainulindale
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

> >  You are right, but I usd this term in a bit wider sense - I.E.
> >  including /m/ and /n/ - it is often that the same rules govern both
> >  /l/,/r/ and /m/, /n/, and therefore theese are called 'liquids',
> >  although it is not strictly right (in Greek there is a similar
> >  thing with verbs).


> Ah, so you mean resonants ? In Indo-European that wd include /y/ and
> /w/. 'Govern the same rules', I believe you refer to the fact that (in
> I.-E.) these can be either sonantical or asonantical, I.E. capable of
> forming a syllable or not. If you mean that, I wd use the term
> 'resonants' since with liquids proper there are one or two thongs
> which work slightly differently. (Besides the fact they share the
> above mentioned quality of being syylabic/non-syllabic). However, it
> doesn't matter much, as long as one says what one wd like to have
> included and what not.


Just to explain: I did not mean resonants. I meant simply l,r,m,n, and
I used the term 'liquid', since E.G. in Greek the verbs ending on
theese four consonants form a single class, and are called (at least in
my grammar) 'liquid verbs' - simply in contrast to 'explosive verbs'.
And something similar is going on in Quenya: the 'liquid verbs' all
form the past participle by -na addition, whereas the others by adding
-ina. Of course m,n are in fact not liquids, but nasals. But for the
sake of verb classification in some languages theese may in my opinion
be grouped together.

Lukas



[elfling ID#3814]
[original subject: Ainulindale 1]
« Last Edit: December 05, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by Lukas Novak »
Logged

Rínon Lindalion

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 57
    • View Profile
Ainulindale
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

San Iluuvatar ortane ar Ainur cenne I antarya nee alassea; ar ortane
Then Iluvatar arose and the Ainur beheld that his face was happy;
and he raised

Hyarya maryaa, ar vinya lin tulle ie endesse raumo ve ar er his
left hand, and a new melody came to be in the middle of the storm
like and yet

Uuve yara lin, ar hostanes val ar haryane vinya vanessee.  Nan I unlike
the former melody, and it gathered power and had new beauty.  But the

Rucine Melkoro ortane reeve ar mahtane soo, ar ennee ohta disorder of
Melkor rose uproariously and fought it, and again there was a war

Lammo nollo naraca [1]; tenna limbe Ainulii tuller ie uulassea ar of
sound more violent than before; until many of the Ainur came to be
unhappy and

Laa lirne, ar Melkor haryane I tuure.  San Iluuvatar enortane, ar Ainur
did not sing, and Melkor had the mastery.  Then Iluvatar arose again,
and the Ainur

Cenne I antarya nee morna; ar ortane forya maryaa, ar aiya! [2] nelya
beheld that his face was dark; and he raised his right hand, and
behold! A third

Lin tulle ie endesse rucine, ar nes uuve yarar. Melody came to be in the
middle of the disorder, and it was unlike the former (ones).

An nes yestave moica ar lindalea, eresse titta siire pitya lammaron
For it was at first soft and melodious, only a small stream  of
little sounds

Lenwa lindissen; nan nes uuquorima [3], ar hostanes son val ar in thin
melodies; but it was unquenchable, and it gathered to itself power and

Tumna tuoo.  Ar nes teldave ve atta lindali lelyala mine luumesse
har deep strength.  And it was finally like two musics proceeding at
one time near

Mahalman Iluuvataro, ar nente aqua uuve.  I mine nee tumna ar palla ar
the throne of Iluvatar, and they were wholly unlike.  The one was deep
and wide and

Vanya, nan lenca ar lanyaina yo antumna nyeeree lesta pella, yallo fair,
but slow and woven with the deepest sorrow beyond measure, from which

Vanesserya heerave utuulie.  I uuve mine [4] utuuvie olin [5] sova; nan
nes its beauty chiefly came.  The unlike one had found unity of its own;
but it was

Lumna roomainen, ar oi vorima; ar nes uutumna, nan haryanes heavy with
loud sounds, and ever repeated; and it was not deep, but had a

Yalmea [7] olin, ve limbe rombaron lirila pitya noote lammaron.  Ar
clamorous unison, like many trumpets singing a small number of
notes.  And

[It essayed] macie pandesse I yara lindalee ormenen oomo, it essayed to
slay in enclosure the former music by the violence of its voice,

Nan nes ve ananapairea lammar ner mapaina I yaranen ar lanyaina but it
was as its most triumphant sounds were seizedby the former and woven

Lunga natseryanna. Into its own    solemn web.

    Endesse sina angayasse, yanen mardi Iluuvataro naracave ruumane ar
    In the middle of this strife, by which the halls of Iluvatar
    violently moved and

Ran wille uulammannar er ruumaina, Iluuvatar ortane nelya lume, ar
antarya a noise ran into the silences yet unmoved, Iluvatar arose a
third time, and his face

Nee ruucima cenie.  San ortanes maryat ar mine olammanen [6], was
terrible to behold.  Then he raised his hands and in one chord,

Undumello Tumna, Menelello taara, maica ve cale hendo deeper than the
Abyss, higher than the firmament, piercingas the light of the eye of

Iluuvataro, I Lindale tyelne. Iluvatar, the Music ceased.


1. Assuming the comparative can be made this way (literally 'sound
   violent from before'.)  I'm also assuming that _noo_ can be used
   as a noun.

2. Is _aiya_ correct here?  I know it means 'hail', as in _Aiya
   Eärendil_, but I think Fingon also uses it to mean 'behold!' - _Aiya
   Eldalie ar Atanatari_.

3. _Uuquorima_ is based on _uunotima_.  I speculated that _-ima_ is an
   adjectival suffix analagous to '-able', and (dubiously) that _quorin_
   from the Lost Tales, meaning 'drowned' is in mature Quenya _quorina_
   with _quor_ as the stem.

4. With no word for 'other' I used 'the unlike one'.  Is _mine_ valid
   as a noun?

5. _Olin_ = o + lin, 'together melody', I.E. 'unity'.  This is really a
   bit of a reach, I guess.

6. There really should be a Quenya word for 'chord'.  I told myself I
   wouldn't try to make up any words, but this is, I think, the
   greatest sentence of the Ainulindale and it deserves the word
   'chord'; thus _olamma_, 'together sound'.



[elfling ID#3816]
[original subject: Ainulindale 1]
« Last Edit: December 06, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by Rínon Lindalion »
Logged

Lukas Novak

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 628
    • View Profile
Ainulindale
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

 Hello Riinon, here are some thoughts I had on your translation

> Hyarya maryaa, ar vinya lin tulle ie endesse raumo ve ar er his
> left hand, and a new melody came to be in the middle of the storm
> like and yet


Maryaa: From 'maaryat' in n it seems that the vowel does not shorten
when added a possessive ending. I would use 'tulle ea' - it is both
safer and more appropriate. ('Tulle ie' would be rather 'came existing')
Or maybe 'nee ontaina' 'was created'.

> Uuve yara lin, ar hostanes val ar haryane vinya vanessee.  Nan I
> unlike the former melody, and it gathered power and had new
> beauty.  But the


The construction 've ar er uuve' seems to me odd, but I cannot offer
any better.

> Lammo nollo naraca [1]; tenna limbe Ainulii tuller ie uulassea ar of
> sound more violent than before; until many of the Ainur came to be
> unhappy and


In my opinion: 'tuller ie' - rather 'tuller naa' (infinitive instead of
gerund, and copula instead of existencial verb).

> An nes yestave moica ar lindalea, eresse titta siire pitya lammaron
> For it was at first soft and melodious, only a small stream  of
> little sounds


'Pitye lammaron' since the governing noun is plural. I would use 'er'
for 'only'

> Lenwa lindissen; nan nes uuquorima [3], ar hostanes son val ar in thin
> melodies; but it was unquenchable, and it gathered to itself power and


'Lenwe lindissen' for the same reason (plural noun).

> Vanya, nan lenca ar lanyaina yo antumna nyeeree lesta pella, yallo
> fair, but slow and woven with the deepest sorrow beyond measure,
> from which


I would say 'lanyaina antumna nyeerenen', for 'yo' means rather
'together with'.

> Vanesserya heerave utuulie.  I uuve mine [4] utuuvie olin [5] sova;
> nan nes its beauty chiefly came.  The unlike one had found unity of
> its own; but it was

'Utuulie' - why perfect? 'The other' - I would use 'the second', but I
cannot now recall the Quenya word. 'Unity': What about 'minesse' ?

> Lumna roomainen, ar oi vorima; ar nes uutumna, nan haryanes heavy with
> loud sounds, and ever repeated; and it was not deep, but had a


'Lumne roomainen' - it is plural. 'Vorima' 'repeated' ? I would rather
say 'ar oi entule' 'and ever came again'

> [It essayed] macie pandesse I yara lindalee ormenen oomo, it essayed
> to slay in enclosure the former music by the violence of its voice,


I would write 'mernes quore [the second] lindalee ormenen oomaryo'
'wanted to drown the second music by the violence of its voice' - nearer
to the English.

> Nan nes ve ananapairea lammar ner mapaina I yaranen ar lanyaina but it
> was as its most triumphant sounds were seizedby the former and woven


'Ananapairie lammar', 'ner mapaine', 'ar lanyaine' - plural.

> Lunga natseryanna. Into its own    solemn web.


I do not know 'natse', but there is 'ungwe' - 'cobweb', not perhaps
suitable (and there are some problems, for Tolkien seems to have changed
the meaning of the stem).

> Endesse sina angayasse, yanen mardi Iluuvataro naracave ruumane ar In
> the middle of this strife, by which the halls of Iluvatar violently
> moved and


I do not understand 'endesse sina angayasse' - maybe should be 'sino
angayasseo'?

> Ran wille uulammannar er ruumaina, Iluuvatar ortane nelya lume, ar
> antarya a noise ran into the silences yet unmoved, Iluvatar arose a
> third time, and his face
>
> Nee ruucima cenie.  San ortanes maryat ar mine olammanen [6], was
> terrible to behold.  Then he raised his hands and in one chord,


I would put the geund into dative 'for to behold' ('horribilis visu') -
'ruucima cenien'. 'Maaryat' according to the N.

> Undumello Tumna, Menelello taara, maica ve cale hendo deeper than the
> Abyss, higher than the firmament, piercingas the light of the eye of


'Light: 'caale' or 'cala'

> Iluuvataro, I Lindale tyelne. Iluvatar, the Music ceased.


'Tyelne'> 'tyelde' (dissimilation)

> 2. Is _aiya_ correct here?  I know it means 'hail', as in _Aiya
>    Eärendil_, but I think Fingon also uses it to mean 'behold!' -
>    _Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatari_.


I think definitely yes.

> 3. _Uuquorima_ is based on _uunotima_.  I speculated that _-ima_ is an
>    adjectival suffix analagous to '-able', and (dubiously) that
>    _quorin_ from the Lost Tales, meaning 'drowned' is in mature Quenya
>    _quorina_ with _quor_ as the stem.


If 'quor' is the verbal stem, then the passive participle would be
'quorna'. But 'quorin' may be one of the adjectives formed by '-in',
such as 'firin' 'dead'. And we have 'fiirima' 'mortal', so we could have
'quoorima' (with long 'oo') 'drownable'. So I in fact aggree with you
(but for the 'oo')


Lukas



[elfling ID#3817]
[original subject: Ainulindale 1]
« Last Edit: December 07, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by Lukas Novak »
Logged

David Kiltz

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 659
    • View Profile
Ainulindale
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

Lukas Novak wrote:

>
> > > You are right, but I usd this term in a bit wider sense - I.E.
> > > including /m/ and /n/ - it is often that the same rules govern
> > > both /l/,/r/ and /m/, /n/, and therefore theese are called
> > > 'liquids', although it is not strictly right (in Greek there is a
> > > similar thing with verbs).
>
>
> > Ah, so you mean resonants ? In Indo-European that wd include /y/ and
> > /w/. 'Govern the same rules', I believe you refer to the fact that
> > (in I.-E.) these can be either sonantical or asonantical, I.E.
> > capable of forming a syllable or not. If you mean that, I wd use the
> > term 'resonants' since with liquids proper there are one or two
> > thongs which work slightly differently. (Besides the fact they share
> > the above mentioned quality of being syylabic/non-syllabic).
> > However, it doesn't matter much, as long as one says what one wd
> > like to have included and what not.
>
>
> Just to explain: I did not mean resonants. I meant simply l,r,m,n, and
> I used the term 'liquid', since E.G. in Greek the verbs ending on
> theese four consonants form a single class, and are called (at least
> in my grammar) 'liquid verbs' - simply in contrast to 'explosive
> verbs'. And something similar is going on in Quenya: the 'liquid
> verbs' all form the past participle by -na addition, whereas the
> others by adding -ina. Of course m,n are in fact not liquids, but
> nasals. But for the sake of verb classification in some languages
> theese may in my opinion be grouped together.
>
> Lukas
>
Just to explain: I think in modern linguistics > l,r,m,n< are grouped
together and are commonly called 'resonants'. When speaking of
(reconstructed) Proto Indo-European (and to my knowledge mostly there) y
and w are included. Again some call these (I.E. r,l,m,n,y,w,) 'sonants',
that can be syllabic or unsyllabic. I prefer to use the term 'sonants'
when applied to syllabic 'resonants' only. ('Sonants' is also sometimes
used synonymously with 'sonorants') 'Liquids' is an somewhat antiquated
term. Yes, it's likely you wd find it still used in a Latin or Greek
grammar. If the term is used as you say, that's old-fashioned (which is
okay) and also somewhat inaccurate. It is very clear that it make sense
to group verbs ending in these consonants together, in Quenya also. If
you will, you can use the term 'liquid' of course. I just thought you
might want to use the term 'resonants' for what are 'resonants'. Now I
gonna have a biscuit or perhaps a cookie, we'll see ;-)

-David



[elfling ID#3821]
[original subject: Ainulindale 1]
« Last Edit: December 08, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by David Kiltz »
Logged

David Kiltz

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 659
    • View Profile
Ainulindale
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

Lukas Novak wrote:

>
> > Why not _hare_ 'sits (down)' aorist and _haara_ continuative ? Where
> > is the problem ?
>
>
> Nowhere - This is what I wanted to be understood as implied by what I
> had written - 'haarar' cannot be a continuative of an -a stem, for it
> would be 'haarear', so it must be a continuative of a consonant stem
> (as continuative it surely is).
>
> Lukas
>
I see, sorry.

-David



[elfling ID#3823]
[original subject: Ainulindale 1]
« Last Edit: December 08, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by David Kiltz »
Logged

Måns Björkman

  • Yahoo elfling member
  • Sr. Member
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 72
    • View Profile
Ainulindale
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

 Helge Klåre Fauskanger wrote:
>
> > But can we be certain it isn't a derived verb _haara_?  Would
> > this not
> Give the same attested _haarar_ in pres. Pl.?
>
> According to the Old (pre-VT41) Theory on the formation of the present
> tense - yes. According to the New Theory - no. A verb _haara-_ would
> have the present tense _haarea_, whereas _haara_ would probably be the
> aorist. But since Tolkien translated _haarar_ as 'are sitting', I
> think we are looking at a continuative/present tense here.

The relevant sentence in vt #41 reads: 'Evidence elsewhere among
Tolkien's papers suggests that _ora_, _oorea_, and _orane_ are reflexes
of an _a_-stem derivative of _oor-_, representing aorist ('urges'),
present continuative ('is urging'), and past ('urged') tense forms,
respectively.'

Note that this is not Tolkien's own words, but an interpretation by
Carl Hostetter. Basing an entire paradigm on what an editor thinks is
suggested by indirect evidence seems like stretching it a little to me.


Regards,        Måns


--
Måns Björkman                                             'Mun þu mik!
Störtloppsvägen 8, III                                        Man þik.
SE-129 46 Hägersten                                         Un þu mer!
Sweden                                                         An þer.'



[elfling ID#3824]
[original subject: Ainulindale 1]
« Last Edit: December 08, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by Måns Björkman »
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6