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Author Topic: Ainulindale  (Read 5356 times)

Rínon Lindalion

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Ainulindale
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

Here are my fifth and sixth paragraphs of the Ainulindale:

    Nan sin Iluuvatar harane ar lastane, ar andave sanwanes [1] I nes
    maara, an But now Iluvatar sat and listened, and long he thought
    that it was good, for

Lindalesse ner laa raica lammar.  Nan ve lin lende, tulles in the music
were no wrong notes.  But as the melody proceeded, it came

Oorenna Melkoro lanyie tanwi nauseo so I ner into the heart of Melkor to
weave devices of the imagining of himself that were

Uulassea yo I lin Iluuvataro; an mernes sinanen carie [role] antaina
improper with the melody of Iluvatar; for he wished by this to make the
role given

Son yontalta valo ar alcareo.  Melkoren Ainuron [2] anaie [3] antaina
I to him more great of power and splendour.  To Melkor of the Ainur
were given the

Analte annar valo ar isto, ar haryanes hyanda [4] ilye annaron most
great gifts of power and knoweldge, and he had a share of all the gifts

Nosseryo.  Lendes rimbave eresse cuumanna [looking for] I Ilfirin of his
brethren.  He went often alone into the void looking for the
Imperishable

Naree, an iire tulle ie saiwa mi so onie tanwi sova, ar Flame, for
desire came to be hot within him to create things of his own, and

Sanwanes I Iluuvatar ante uusanwe cuuman, ar nes uusenda he thought that
Iluvatar gave no thought to the void, and he was not at peace

Lustenen.  Nan laa utuuvies I Naree, an nes yo Iluuvatar.  Nan nala
for its emptiness.  Yet he did not find the Fire, for it was with
Iluvatar. But being

Eressea, tulles nooa sanwion so, uve sanwi alone, he came to the
conception of thoughts of his own, unlike the thoughts of his

Nosseo. Brethren.

    Sanweli sii lanyane lindaleryanna ar sii rucine [5] ortane Some of
    these thoughts now he wove into his music and now disorder rose

Har son, ar limbe I lirne har son tulle ie uulassea, ar sanwenta
near to him, and many that sang nigh to him came to be unhappy, and
there thought

Ne raacina ar lindalenta ne nuhtaina; nan Ainulii sii was shattered and
their music was stopped short; but some of the Ainur now

Lanyaner lindalentaa linderyanna ar laa sanwenna yanna lirnenter wove
their music into his music and not into the thought into which they sang

Minyave.  San I ruucine Melkoro palyane oi yontapalan, ar I lindi yar at
first.  Then the disorder of Melkor spread ever more wide, and the
melodies which

Anaier hlarine noo ner quorini earesse naraca raaveo.  Nan Iluuvatar
harane ar were heard before were drowned in a sea of violent noise.  But
Iluvatar sat and

Lastane I luumenna yasse lamma ne ve ahala raumo har mahalmaryan,
listened to the time in which the sound was like a raging storm near
his throne,

Ve mor neno yar mahte quen yo quen uuteleina ormesse I laa nuva like
dark waters that fight one against another in unending wrath that
will not be

Metyaina. Ceased.


1 - _sanwa_ is my guess at the verbal form of _sanwe_. 2 - Is it correct
to use a partitive genitive this way? 3 - _anaie_ would, I think, be the
perfect of _na_, but all those vowels don't look right to me. 4 -
_hyanda_ is glossed in the Quettaparma Quenyanna as 'share', but the
only similar word I can find elsewhere is translated 'blade'.  Is
_hyanda_ a useable word? 5 - _rucine_ is my guess at the noun form of
_rucina_, 'disordered,  shattered'.

Also, I can't find anything for 'role' or 'seeking'.  Any help would be
appreciated.

Rínon Lindalion



[elfling ID#3729]
[original subject: Ainulindale 1]
« Last Edit: November 24, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by Rínon Lindalion »
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Andreas Johansson

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Ainulindale
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

 > 4 - _hyanda_ is glossed in the Quettaparma Quenyanna as 'share', but
 > the only similar word I can find elsewhere is translated 'blade'.  Is
 > _hyanda_ a useable word?

It'd be derived from pq sjad 'shear through, cleave', which yields word
for axe-blades etc. Semantically, I think it's possible; it you
_cleave_ a cake and devides the piece to some people each gets a
_share_. _Hyanda_ 'share' would then be some sort of participle 'what
you get when you _hyare_ (cleave) smth'.

                                         Andreas



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« Last Edit: November 25, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by Andreas Johansson »
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Jerome Colburn

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Ainulindale
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, Andreas Johansson wrote:

> > 4 - _hyanda_ is glossed in the Quettaparma Quenyanna as 'share', but
> > the only similar word I can find elsewhere is translated 'blade'.
> > Is _hyanda_ a useable word?
>
> It'd be derived from pq sjad 'shear through, cleave', which yields
> word for axe-blades etc. Semantically, I think it's possible; it you
> _cleave_ a cake and devides the piece to some people each gets a
> _share_.

Either that, or 'share' means a plo(w/ugh)share, the blade of the
plo(w/ugh).

Jerome Colburn



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« Last Edit: November 25, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by Jerome Colburn »
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Lukas Novak

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Ainulindale
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

Hello, these are my suggestions:

> Nan sin Iluuvatar harane ar lastane, ar andave sanwanes [1] I nes
> maara, an But now Iluvatar sat and listened, and long he thought that
> it was good, for


I am not sure, but is should not be 'haarane'? 'I nes' - doubled
subject. I would write 'I nee' What about 'intyanes' instead of
'sanwanes'?

> Lindalesse ner laa raica lammar.  Nan ve lin lende, tulles in the
> music were no wrong notes.  But as the melody proceeded, it came


Do we know whether a separate subject (tulleS) is needed when there is a
gerund (lanie) in the subject position? I think rather not.

> Oorenna Melkoro lanyie tanwi nauseo so I ner into the heart of Melkor
> to weave devices of the imagining of himself that
Were


'Lanyie' would simplify in 'lanie', it is supposed What about simple
'nauseryo 'of his imagining' instead of 'nauseo so' ? I would maybe
rather use an article with the gerund: thus 'tulle I lanie'


> Uulassea yo I lin Iluuvataro; an mernes sinanen carie [role] antaina
> improper with the melody of Iluvatar; for he wished by this to make
> the role
Given


'Sinanen' - could be 'tanen'? I would use simple infinitive: 'mernes
care', for 'mer-' is a modal verb. As for 'role' - we have 'tyaro'
'agent' if I am not mistaken, thus we may suspect a a verbal stem 'tya-'
or 'tyar-' 'to act', which could give 'tyasse' 'action'¨- that maybe
could be used here?

> Son yontalta valo ar alcareo.  Melkoren Ainuron [2] anaie [3] antaina
> I to him more great of power and splendour.  To Melkor of the Ainur
> were given
The


Just my feeling, that 'of power and splendour' should be rathe
instrumentals. And I suspect the forms - vala 'power' is 'a Vala', 'a
Power'. Maybe the abstract noun is 'valasse' or 'vale'. As for
'alcareo', I think the word is 'alcar', not 'alcare'. Thus, in
instrumental, 'valassenen ar alcarnen' The comparative is always
problem.... I would not risk the perfect of 'naa', I would use 'nee',
which may be equally wrong, but is in use at least :-) And you need it
not here, I think (the past is better, it agrees with 'haryane')

> Analte annar valo ar isto, ar haryanes hyanda [4] ilye annaron
> most great gifts of power and knoweldge, and he had a share of all
> the gifts

> Nosseryo.  Lendes rimbave eresse cuumanna [looking for] I Ilfirin of
> his brethren.  He went often alone into the void looking for the
> Imperishable


'Of his brethren' is 'nosseryaron' 'nosse-rya-r-o-n'
'brother-his-plural-genitive-secondary plural ending'. 'Er' suffices
for 'Eresse' in my opinion. 'Looking for' can be 'merila tuve'
'wanting to find'

> Naree, an iire tulle ie saiwa mi so onie tanwi sova, ar Flame, for
> desire came to be hot within him to create things of his own, and


'Flame' is 'Naar'. Maybe inversion should take place: 'I Naar Ilfirin'
What about 'iire tuiane saiwa' ? It is difficult to say what case should
'onie' be in: desire of creating (gen), desire to (for) create (dat) or
accusative as you have it...? I would perhaps write 'onieeva', for the
'ajectival genitive' seems to me undefinite enough not to be wrong...
'Tanwi' - I do not know the word, but there is 'nat' 'thing'


> Sanwanes I Iluuvatar ante uusanwe cuuman, ar nes uusenda he thought
> that Iluvatar gave no thought to the void, and he was not at peace


Maybe 'I cuuman'?

> Lustenen.  Nan laa utuuvies I Naree, an nes yo Iluuvatar.  Nan nala
> for its emptiness.  Yet he did not find the Fire, for it was with
> Iluvatar.
But being


Is 'luste' 'emptiness' right? An what about 'its'? I would circumscribe
the phrase 'an I cuuma nee lusta' 'for the Void was empty' 'Did not
find' is 'laa tuve', 'utuuvie' is perfect. Again, 'Fire' is, afaik,
'naar' 'nala' - I would not risk the participle if not necessary - here
you can say 'Nan an nes eressea'

> Eressea, tulles nooa sanwion so, uve sanwi alone, he came to the
> conception of thoughts of his own, unlike the thoughts of his


Maybe 'tulles intien sanwi' 'came to think thoughts' 'conception' is
'noo' or 'noa'

> Nosseo. Brethren.


Of his brethren: 'nosseryaron'

> Sanweli sii lanyane lindaleryanna ar sii rucine [5] ortane Some of
> these thoughts now he wove into his music and now disorder rose


Maybe could be 'I sanwion sii lanyane' 'some of the thoughts', supposing
that partitive genitive can function that way.... I like 'rucine' better
than 'rucinasse'

> Har son, ar limbe I lirne har son tulle ie uulassea, ar sanwenta
> near to him, and many that sang nigh to him came to be unhappy, and
> there thought


I would use infinitive, not gerund, and the word 'naa', for it is
copula: 'tulle naa uulassea' I do not know the word 'limbe' - you
mean 'rimbe'?

> Ne raacina ar lindalenta ne nuhtaina; nan Ainulii sii was shattered
> and their music was stopped short; but some of the Ainur now


'Nee' is used commonly as the past of 'to be' It is perhaps odd to
shift to plural ('-enta'), but it seems to be the best solution, if
'limbe' is singular.


-----
Seems to be very good! The rest next time....

Lukas



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« Last Edit: November 24, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by Lukas Novak »
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Rínon Lindalion

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Ainulindale
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

<<> Nan sin Iluuvatar harane ar lastane, ar andave sanwanes [1] I
nes maara, an
> But now Iluvatar sat and listened, and long he thought that it was
> good, for

I am not sure, but is should not be 'haarane'? 'I nes' - doubled
subject. I would write 'I nee' What about 'intyanes' instead of
'sanwanes'?> >

Quite right about 'haarane.'  The 'I' was a slip for what I guess
should be 'sa' ('that' as a conjunction)  'intyanes' is good as well,
thank you.


<'nauseo so' ?> >

I thought here it would be better to use the independent emphatic
pronoun - of his imagining, as opposed to Iluvatar's

<<'Sinanen' - could be 'tanen'? I would use simple infinitive: 'mernes
care', for 'mer-' is a modal verb.> >

Yes, 'tanen' is better.  Do you think 'sina', 'ta', and 'ya' are
analogous to each other in the same way as English 'this', 'that', and
'which'?  If so, inflecting them would give a whole system of
demonstrative and relative adverbs, E.G. 'yanen'='wherefor',
'tanen'='therefor', 'yallo'='whence', etc.

What is meant by a modal verb?  I didn't know any verbs formed
infinitives with other than '-ie'.

<<> son yontalta valo ar alcareo.  Melkoren Ainuron [2] anaie [3]
antaina I
> To him more great of power and splendour.  To Melkor of the Ainur
> were given
The

Just my feeling, that 'of power and splendour' should be rathe
instrumentals.> >

Actually, I think I should have done that whole phrase differently.
Closer to the original would be ' . . . an mernes tanen carie yontalta I
valo ar I alcaro tyasseo antaina son.'

<the abstract noun is 'valasse' or 'vale'. As for 'alcareo', I think the
word is 'alcar', not 'alcare'. Thus, in instrumental, 'valassenen ar
alcarnen'> >

About 'vala': I know that it came to refer to the Valar only, and was
not used as an ordinary word for 'power'; I thought, though, that using
it in the Ainulindale would be okay, as it would be the first writing on
the Valar, and would probably show the derivation.  I think you're
saying, though, that there's also a separate linguistic issue - the
difference between 'power' and 'a power', 'a thing possessing power'?
If there is such a distinction, I guess 'valasse' would be best.

< >

Do you think that 've' could be used as a comparative conjuction?  E.G.,
'tumna ve undome' = 'deep as the abyss', 'yontatumna ve undome' = 'more
deep than the abyss'?  (And I know that 'yonta-' is from the '20s or
'30s, but there's absolutely nothing else to take its place)

<>

I'd rather figure out some reasonable perfect form; it'll be necessary
at some point.  I don't think that it has to agree with 'haryane' here.
The original is 'To Melkor of the Ainur had been given the greatest
gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his
brethren.' Here, 'had been given' is pluperfect and 'had' is past.  In
the absence of a Quenya pluperfect, I thought perfect would be best.
For the perfect of 'na-' I think the reasonable possibilities are
'anaie' or 'anie' or maybe 'nie'.

<<'Of his brethren' is 'nosseryaron' 'nosse-rya-r-o-n'> >

Need 'nosseo' be pluralized?  Is it akin to 'person' or 'people'?

<<'Flame' is 'Naar'. Maybe inversion should take place: 'I Naar
Ilfirin'> >

Sometimes the English has 'Flame Imperishable', and sometimes it has
'Imperishable Flame'.  I figured the 'translator' would only do that if
the Quenya was inverted likewise.

<creating (gen), desire to (for) create (dat) or accusative as you have
it...? I would perhaps write 'onieeva', for the 'ajectival genitive'
seems to me undefinite enough not to be wrong...> >

Yes, I think I should have used a genitive here.  Why '-va' instead of
'-o', though?

<<'Tanwi' - I do not know the word, but there is 'nat' 'thing'> >

'Tanwe' is from the etymologies.

< >

Right, of course.  I've gotten to used to Latin and its lack of
articles.

< >

I think it makes sense from etym. 'Lusta' = 'empty'.  Or should it
perhaps be 'lustasse'?  The corrected form then would be either
'lusteryanen' or 'lustasseryanen'.

<<'Did not find' is 'laa tuve', 'utuuvie' is perfect.> >

I think perfect could be used here, as this action occurs before the
'present', I.E., the music.

<supposing that partitive genitive can function that way....> >

I was using 'sanweli' = partitive plural of 'sanwe'.  If this isn't a
place where it can be used, I really see very little use for it.

<>

I did not think there was a difference between Quenya infinitive and
gerund. 'Limbe' is all I could find for 'many'; it's from the Book of
Lost Tales.  I don't think 'rimbe' is quite the same, but I suppose it
does suggest that he changed the root from lim- to rim-.  Do you think
there's another word that can be used for many?


Rínon Lindalion



[elfling ID#3739]
[original subject: Ainulindale 1]
« Last Edit: November 26, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by Rínon Lindalion »
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Lukas Novak

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Ainulindale
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

 Here is the rest of my suggestions, - some of the words I do not know,
 these I leave unnoticed. Please remember these are only my opinion.

> Lanyaner lindalentaa linderyanna ar laa sanwenna yanna lirnenter
> wove their music into his music and not into the thought into which
> they sang

'Lirnenter': the plutral '-r' is attached only if the pronominal ending
is not - thus 'lirnente'


> Minyave.  San I ruucine Melkoro palyane oi yontapalan, ar I lindi yar
> at first.  Then the disorder of Melkor spread ever more wide, and the
> melodies which


Yesta 'first' isolated from 'yestare' (LotR) - thus rather 'yestave'
'firstly' than 'minyave'

> Anaier hlarine noo ner quorini earesse naraca raaveo.  Nan Iluuvatar
> harane ar were heard before were drowned in a sea of violent noise.
> But Iluvatar sat and


I would say 'I lindi I ner hlarne' - there is no reason to try to form
perfect of 'to be' and the liquid stems add '-na' and not '-ina' to form
passive participles I would write 'noo nente', for this is a new clause
without subject. But others have recently expressed different opinions
on the question when the pronominal ending is required.

> Lastane I luumenna yasse lamma ne ve ahala raumo har mahalmaryan,
> listened to the time in which the sound was like a raging storm near
> his throne,

I should make use of the expression 'tenna' 'until' (¨'tenn'
ambar metta' LotR): 'lastane tenn' I luumen yasse...' 'Ne' - I
would use 'nee'

> Ve mor neno yar mahte quen yo quen uuteleina ormesse I laa nuva like
> dark waters that fight one against another in unending wrath that
> will not be


Should be 've mori neeni' in plural, shouldn't it? 'Mahtar' '(they)
fight I do not know what stem is the werb 'to end'. But if it is 'tel-',
then pp is 'telda', if it is 'tela-', then it is 'telaina'. Your
'teleina' looks like if it were 'tele-', but I think that -e stems do
not exist in Quenya.


Lukas



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« Last Edit: November 26, 2000, 05:00:00 PM by Lukas Novak »
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Lukas Novak

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Ainulindale
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

Rl: Quite right about 'haarane.'  The 'I' was a slip for what I guess
should be 'sa' ('that' as a conjunction)  'intyanes' is good as well,
thank you. Ln: I am not certain, but it seems to me right to use
simple 'I' for 'that' as conjunction of the object clause. The reason
is that the whole clause is in a nominal position, I.E. of an object,
and that the nominalizer 'I' can serve as the device to join it to the
main clause.

Ln: <so' ?> > rl: I thought here it would be better to use the independent
emphatic pronoun - of his imagining, as opposed to Iluvatar's ln: The
problem is that the genitive is does not differ from nominative.. If you
really wanted to use independent pronoun, I would go for 'nauseo erya'

Rl: If so, inflecting them (pronouns) would give a whole system of
demonstrative and relative adverbs, E.G. 'yanen'='wherefor',
'tanen'='therefor', 'yallo'='whence', etc. ln: Absolutely yes! I have
always thought it must be possible this way, but I've never really
tried to formulate the system.


Rl: What is meant by a modal verb?  I didn't know any verbs formed
infinitives with other than '-ie'.

Ln: This is a misunderstanding!
1) Modal verbs are verbs that modify other verbs, that are in infinitive
   as their direct objects (the infinitive is in the accusative case).
   These are E.G. can, may, will and so on. Thus not the modal verb, but
   its object (the other verb) is in infinitive.
2) In Quenya there are 2 infinitives and one gerund.
- Infinitive (1) is the simple stem of the verb, in case of the
  consonantal stems with added -E.
- Infinitive (2) is formed from the infinitive (1) by adding '-ta',
  while the final -e changes into -I (in fact, the original -I reappears
  that had changed to -e in final position - this is a common Quenya
  phonetical change)
- Gerund is formed by removing the (possible) final stem vowel and
  adding -ie

What are the differences between these three? We may say, that gerund
functions simply as  declined infinitive - I.E. it replaces infinitive
in the indirect cases (all except nominative and accusative) Thus in
'Elenna nooreo alcar enyalien' 'enyalien' is gerund in dative: 'in order
to recal'. It is important to know, that the gramatical relation of the
gerund to its determinatives is that of the original verb, not that of a
noun: therefore in 'alcar enyalien' 'alcar' is in accusative, for in
accusative it would be as a direct object of the verb 'to recall' - 'to
recall the glory'. If 'enyalie' were not gerund, but simple noun, there
should have been a genitive: 'recalling of the glory'

I suppose that infinitive (1) replaces the gerund in the direct cases,
because it is so in Latin, and because otherwise the infinitive would
not have any function. Unlike Latin, Quenya Gerund has its nominative
and accusative, but it has in my opinion more nominalized meaning:
'carie' is rather 'doing', 'action' than 'to do', and therefore it is
unsuitable as the object of the modal verbs - for they require fully
verbal meaning : 'I can read', not 'I can reading'. But there surely are
cases when both infinitive and gerund is possible, such as in English
you can say 'I go swimming' as well as 'I go to swim' (this in fact is
not a very good example, for here the 'swimming' I would suppose to be
in the dative case ('I go in order to swim') and so the dative gerund
would be used in Quenya).

As for the Infinitive (2), it is used instead of the Infinitive (1) in
case that other endings (E.G. an object 'it' '-s') are attached - for if
the normal infinitive were used, 'caris' could mean 'he/she/it does' as
well as 'to do it'. The correct for 'to do it' is then 'caritas'

Rl: Actually, I think I should have done that whole phrase differently.
Closer to the original would be ' . . . an mernes tanen carie yontalta I
valo ar I alcaro tyasseo antaina son.'

Ln: This seems very good, but for 'carie' which should be 'care', and
for the very, very hypothetical 'tyasse' (note that there is a noun
'tyalie' 'a play', which can be connected with it..) Maybe it would be
safer simply to say 'alcaro lindeo antaina son'....

Rl: About 'vala': I know that it came to refer to the Valar only, and
was not used as an ordinary word for 'power'; I thought, though, that
using it in the Ainulindale would be okay, as it would be the first
writing on the Valar, and would probably show the derivation.  I think
you're saying, though, that there's also a separate linguistic issue -
the difference between 'power' and 'a power', 'a thing possessing
power'?  If there is such a distinction, I guess 'valasse' would be
best. Ln: I am quite bit unsure about the meaning of the derivatives of
'vala-' - maybe somebody else can tell more. There is the verb 'pol-'
'to be able' and the epithet 'Poldoorea' 'Valiant' (if I remember well).
I have once argued that 'poldoorea' means 'with mighty heart'  'polda'+
'oore'. Mayby 'might' is 'poldasse' or 'polde' (if not 'poldoore').


Rl: Do you think that 've' could be used as a comparative conjuction?
E.G., 'tumna ve undome' = 'deep as the abyss', 'yontatumna ve undome' =
'more deep than the abyss'?  (And I know that 'yonta-' is from the '20s
or '30s, but there's absolutely nothing else to take its place)

Ln: I would rather use som 'comparative case' - in Latin it is the
ablative, in Czech it is the Genitive, but in Czech the Genitive employs
some funcions of ablative. So I would simply write 'yontatumna
undomello'. However, in Czech we sometimes (but not in the written
language) use the equivalent of 've' to form the comparative phrases in
the way you proposed.

Rl: I'd rather figure out some reasonable perfect form; it'll be
necessary at some point.  I don't think that it has to agree with
'haryane' here.  The original is 'To Melkor of the Ainur had been given
the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the
gifts of his brethren.' Here, 'had been given' is pluperfect and 'had'
is past.  In the absence of a Quenya pluperfect, I thought perfect would
be best.  For the perfect of 'na-' I think the reasonable possibilities
are 'anaie' or 'anie' or maybe 'nie'.


I do not think so, for perfect is much more present than past. It
describes a present state caused by a past event (I suppose the Quenya
perfect is more like Greek and English, than Latin). If I were forced to
use perfect of 'naa', I would use 'aanie'. But, as somebody had said
here already, who has ever heard of 'to be' to be regular?

Ln: <<'of his brethren' is 'nosseryaron' 'nosse-rya-r-o-n'> >

Rl: Need 'nosseo' be pluralized?  Is it akin to 'person' or 'people'?

Ln: My fault: 'nosse' is of course 'house' of 'family'. Thus 'nosseryo'
'of his kins' is better.... But have we not a word for 'brother'?


Rl: Sometimes the English has 'Flame Imperishable', and sometimes it has
'Imperishable Flame'.  I figured the 'translator' would only do that if
the Quenya was inverted likewise.

Ln: Yes, it seem as a right supposition, since we do not know much about
Quenya word order.

Ln: <creating (gen), desire to (for) create (dat) or accusative as you have
it...? I would perhaps write 'onieeva', for the 'ajectival genitive'
seems to me undefinite enough not to be wrong...> > rl: Yes, I think I
should have used a genitive here.  Why '-va' instead of '-o', though?

Ln: Simply because the -va genitive is more like an ajective - and you
ask 'what desire'. The -o genitive is most probably also possible, but
it somehow has a connotation of 'origin' as it seems to me...

Ln: < > rl: I think
it makes sense from etym. 'Lusta' = 'empty'.  Or should it perhaps be
'lustasse'?  The corrected form then would be either 'lusteryanen' or
'lustasseryanen'.

Ln: If I were the author of Quenya, I would prefer 'luste'. But I am
not, and I do not know what is more probable. Should we accept as a new
possible way how to form abstracts from adjectives the simple change of
-a into -e ? What is the evidence?

Ln: <<'Did not find' is 'laa tuve', 'utuuvie' is perfect.> > rl: I think
perfect could be used here, as this action occurs before the 'present',
I.E., the music. Ln:

I think one should follow the English: Both is possible in English, and
here the author wanted to say that an event did not occur in past (past
tense), not that certain state is not in being (perfect).

Rl: I don't think 'rimbe' is quite the same, but I suppose it does
suggest that he changed the root from lim- to rim-.  Do you think
there's another word that can be used for many?

Ln: There is a prefix 'lin-' 'many-', but it seems to in adjectives
only, as in 'lindornea' 'with many beeches'. 'Rimba' is 'numerous' or
'often' (adj.)

Please, note that many of my opinions may be wrong! I just try to help
by giving my view...

Lukas



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Rínon Lindalion

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Ainulindale
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

 <>

What is a liquid stem?  Is it a basic stem as opposed to one ending in
-ya or -ta?

<>

The 'quetteparma quenyanna' gives a stem of 'tele-'; it says it's from
the War of the Jewels P. 411.  Unfortunately, I don't yet have WotJ.
Perhaps someone who does could check for me?  In the meantime, I might
as well use 'tyel-', 'cease'.  Is the pp of this 'tyelda' or 'tyelina'?
I thought the only endings were -ina and -na; when does this become -da?



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Andrew Durdin

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Ainulindale
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

 vanlin wrote:
>
>
> The 'quetteparma quenyanna' gives a stem of 'tele-'; it says it's
> from the War of the Jewels P. 411.  Unfortunately, I don't yet have
> WotJ.  Perhaps someone who does could check for me?

'Note 15 'a simple agental formation (like /*abaro/ >  /*abar/ from
*aba) from the stem *tele, the primary sense of which appears to have
been 'close, end, come at the end': hence in q /telda/ 'last,
final'; /tele-/ intransitive verb 'finish, end', or 'be the last
thing or person in a series or sequence of events'; /telya/ transitive
verb 'finish, wind up, conclude'; /telma/ 'a conclusion, anything
used to finish off a work or affair'. This was possibly distinct from
/*tel-u/ 'roof in, put the crown on a building', seen in q /telume/
'roof, canopy'. ...

Andrew



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Lukas Novak

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Ainulindale
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

> What is a liquid stem?  Is it a basic stem as opposed to one ending in
> -ya or -ta?


It was a shorthand for a stem ending on a liquid consonant - these are
(in a wider sense) l,r,m,N. These stems allow adding -na instead of
-ina, according to the phonology of Quenya. But in case of '-lna' this
dissimilates into '-lda', according to the rules.

> The 'quetteparma quenyanna' gives a stem of 'tele-'; it says it's
> from the War of the Jewels P. 411.  Unfortunately, I don't yet have
> WotJ.  Perhaps someone who does could check for me?  In the meantime,
> I might as well use 'tyel-', 'cease'.  Is the pp of this 'tyelda' or
> 'tyelina'?  I thought the only endings were -ina and -na; when does
> this become -da?


I do not know 'quettaparma'. Maybe the final -e in 'tele-' is not a part
of the stem, but the infinitive suffix added to all consonant stems -
thus the real stem is 'tel-' and the declination goes 'telin, telilye,
telis, ...' The pp of 'tyel-' is 'tyelda', due to the dissimilation in
the -ln- cluster. But maybe 'tyelina' too has a meaning, perhaps
slightly different - for we have such words as 'malina' 'golden' from
the stem 'mal-' (it is not a verbal stem, though).

Lukas



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Ales Bican

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Ainulindale
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

 Lukas Novak and Riinon Lindalion wrote:

> > Nan sin Iluuvatar harane ar lastane, ar andave sanwanes [1] I nes
> > maara, an But now Iluvatar sat and listened, and long he thought
> > that it was good, for
>
> I am not sure, but is should not be 'haarane'?

 **Seems a bit strange to me. Pa. T. of _har-_ would be _harne_ or ever
 maybe _haare_, but very likely not _haarane_. _Har-_ is of the same
 pattern as _car-_ and pa.T.'s of the _car-_ are given as _carne_ and
 (in an earlier source) _caare_.

> 'I nes' - doubled subject. I would write 'I nee' What about 'intyanes'
> instead of 'sanwanes'?

 **_Sanwa_ surely not. _Intya-_ is 'guess, suppose'. I think we can
 safely use _sana-_ 'think' isolated from _sanar_ 'thinker'.

> > Lindalesse ner laa raica lammar.  Nan ve lin lende, tulles in the
> > music were no wrong notes.  But as the melody proceeded, it came

 **We do not know if _laa_ can be used for 'no' (as 'no notes'), I would
 not risk it. Simply say _uumer_ '[they] were not'. Anyway, I would use
 here rather _ea_, pa.T. _Eane_ or _enge_.

> > Uulassea yo I lin Iluuvataro; an mernes sinanen carie [role] antaina
> > improper with the melody of Iluvatar; for he wished by this to make
> > the role
> Given
>
> 'Sinanen' - could be 'tanen'? I would use simple infinitive: 'mernes
> care', for 'mer-' is a modal verb. As for 'role' - we have 'tyaro'
> 'agent' if I am not mistaken, thus we may suspect a a verbal stem
> 'tya-' or 'tyar-' 'to act', which could give 'tyasse' 'action'¨- that
> maybe could be used here?

 **_Tyaro_ is derived from vb. _Tyar-_ 'cause' and this from the stem
 kyar. And I do not think that 'actor' is here meant as a role player,
 but rather as a doer, worker, sc. Someone who causes something. _Tyar_
 (gen. _Tyardo_) would be 'deed'. There is vb. _Tyal-_ 'play' and N.
 _tyalie_ 'game, play', maybe this could be used.

> > Son yontalta valo ar alcareo.  Melkoren Ainuron [2] anaie [3]
> > antaina I to him more great of power and splendour.  To Melkor of
> > the Ainur were given
> The

 **I think I sure said it before: _yonta-_ cannot be used for the
 comparatives, but you have not cared. At least it does not mean 'more',
 for this _yonta-_ was a misreading for _yanta-_ which is actually the
 verb 'enlarge, increase'!

> As for 'alcareo', I think the word is 'alcar', not 'alcare'.

 **Both forms are possible.

> 'Looking for' can be 'merila tuve' 'wanting to find'

 **There is _saka-_ 'look for' from the Qenya lexicon. It might be
 invalid, though.

> > Naree, an iire tulle ie saiwa mi so onie tanwi sova, ar Flame, for
> > desire came to be hot within him to create things of his own, and
>
> 'Flame' is 'Naar'.

 **As well as _naare_...

> Maybe inversion should take place: 'I Naar Ilfirin'

 **I wondered if _ilfirin_ is still valid. The prefix _il-_ is
 associated with 'every' (cf. _Ilqua_ 'everything', _ilquen_
 'everyone'). I think it would be quite weird if q had two indetically
 looking prefixes, the former for 'un-' and the latter for 'every-'.
 Anyway, there is the flower _alfirin_ and if it is Qunya, it might be
 'undying' (cf. _Ala-_ 'not' in _alahasta_ 'unmarred').

> > Sanwanes I Iluuvatar ante uusanwe cuuman, ar nes uusenda he thought
> > that Iluvatar gave no thought to the void, and he was not at peace

 **I would write _Iluuvatar uume anta sanwe_ 'Iluuvatar did not give any
 thought'. At least it is safer.

> > Lustenen.  Nan laa utuuvies I Naree, an nes yo Iluuvatar.  Nan nala
> > for its emptiness.  Yet he did not find the Fire, for it was with
> > Iluvatar.
> But being
>
> Is 'luste' 'emptiness' right?

 **I would use _lustasse_ instead. But we have _kuuma_ 'the void'
 well attested.

> An what about 'its'?

 **It is probably _-rya_ as well. E.G. _parmarya_ 'his/her/its book'.

> > Sanweli sii lanyane lindaleryanna ar sii rucine [5] ortane Some of
> > these thoughts now he wove into his music and now disorder rose
>
> Maybe could be 'I sanwion sii lanyane' 'some of the thoughts',
> supposing that partitive genitive can function that way.... I like
> 'rucine' better than 'rucinasse'

 **I like _rucinasse_ better...


*****

> > Minyave.  San I ruucine Melkoro palyane oi yontapalan, ar I lindi
> > yar at first.  Then the disorder of Melkor spread ever more wide,
> > and the melodies which
>
> Yesta 'first' isolated from 'yestare' (LotR) - thus rather 'yestave'
> 'firstly' than 'minyave'

 **_Yesta_ would be rather 'first' as 'beginning, opening, starting,
 preceding'. I do not say that it would be bad to use this word, but I
 think it is not necessary to use it instead of _minyave_. And I would,
 in order to avoid a confusion, use rather _(I) yessesse_ 'in the
 beginning'.


*****


> Rl: About 'vala': I know that it came to refer to the Valar only, and
> was not used as an ordinary word for 'power'; I thought, though, that
> using it in the Ainulindale would be okay, as it would be the first
> writing on the Valar, and would probably show the derivation.  I think
> you're saying, though, that there's also a separate linguistic issue
> - the difference between 'power' and 'a power', 'a thing possessing
> power'?  If there is such a distinction, I guess 'valasse' would be
> best. Ln: I am quite bit unsure about the meaning of the derivatives
> of 'vala-' - maybe somebody else can tell more.

 **_Vala_ 'Power, God', pl. _Valar_, _Vali_; _Valie_ fem. Vala _vala-_
 'rule, order' _valaina_ 'divine' _valasse_ 'divinity' _valya_ 'having
 divine authority'
+ A few names containing _Val-_ and + a few other words from earlier
  sources when _Valar_ meant something like 'the happy ones'.

> There is the verb 'pol-' 'to be able' and the epithet 'Poldoorea'
> 'Valiant' (if I remember well). I have once argued that 'poldoorea'
> means 'with mighty heart'  'polda'+ 'oore'. Mayby 'might' is
> 'poldasse' or 'polde' (if not 'poldoore').

 **It might be possible that it is just a compound of _polda_ 'heart'
 and _oore_ 'heart', but note that the entry in Etym gives _poldore_ (no
 long second o), one would expect _poldoore_. Yes, _poldore_ still may
 be a misreading for _poldoore_, but it also might contain the suffix
 _-re_ found in _almare_ 'blessedness' (_alma_ 'wealth') or _alcare_
 'brilliance' (_alca_ 'ray of light').

> But have we not a word for 'brother'?

 **_Toron_ 'brother'; _otorno_ 'sworn brother'.

> Rl: Sometimes the English has 'Flame Imperishable', and sometimes it
> has 'Imperishable Flame'.  I figured the 'translator' would only do
> that if the Quenya was inverted likewise. Ln: Yes, it seem as a right
> supposition, since we do not know much about Quenya word order.

 **'...While in Telerin and Sindarin the adjectival elements [in
 compounds] often were placed second, especially in later-formed names,
 according to the usual placing of adjectives in the ordinary speech of
 those languages [sc. The Eldarin ones: Quenya, Sindarin, Telerin,
 (Nandorin)]' (pm:346).

> Ln: <> creating (gen), desire to (for) create (dat) or accusative as you have
> it...? I would perhaps write 'onieeva', for the 'ajectival genitive'
> seems to me undefinite enough not to be wrong...> > rl: Yes, I think I
> should have used a genitive here.  Why '-va' instead of '-o', though?
>
> Ln: Simply because the -va genitive is more like an ajective - and you
> ask 'what desire'. The -o genitive is most probably also possible, but
> it somehow has a connotation of 'origin' as it seems to me...

 **If you want to use _onie_ 'creating', why not use a compound?
 _Onie-iire_ 'creating desire, desire for creating'?


Ales Bican



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Rínon Lindalion

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Ainulindale
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

> **Seems a bit strange to me. Pa. T. of _har-_ would be _harne_ or ever
> maybe _haare_, but very likely not _haarane_. _Har-_ is of the same
> pattern as _car-_ and pa.T.'s of the _car-_ are given as _carne_ and
> (in an earlier source) _caare_.

I thought the verb was _hara-_.  I'm not sure, though.

> **We do not know if _laa_ can be used for 'no' (as 'no notes'), I
> would not risk it. Simply say _uumer_ '[they] were not'. Anyway, I
> would use here rather _ea_, pa.T. _Eane_ or _enge_.

I assume you meant _uuner_; I agree.  Why use _ea_, though?  I thought
this should only be used when the emphasis on on the thing's existence,
'it exists' as opposed to merely 'it is'.

> _Tyar_ (gen. _Tyardo_) would be 'deed'. There is vb. _Tyal-_ 'play'
> and N. _tyalie_ 'game, play', maybe this could be used.

'Deeds' might work here as well.

> **I think I sure said it before: _yonta-_ cannot be used for the
> comparatives, but you have not cared. At least it does not mean
> 'more', for this _yonta-_ was a misreading for _yanta-_ which is
> actually the verb 'enlarge, increase'!

Oh!  I wasn't aware it was a misreading for a verb; I thought it was
merely an old word, probably no longer valid.  Unfortunately, the
comparative is a real necessity.  I'd go so far as to say the
Ainulindale is untranslateable without it.  Any ideas?

> **I wondered if _ilfirin_ is still valid. The prefix _il-_ is
> associated with 'every' (cf. _Ilqua_ 'everything', _ilquen_
> 'everyone'). I think it would be quite weird if q had two indetically
> looking prefixes, the former for 'un-' and the latter for 'every-'.
> Anyway, there is the flower _alfirin_ and if it is Qunya, it might be
> 'undying' (cf. _Ala-_ 'not' in _alahasta_ 'unmarred').

This makes sense to me, especially with attested _alamanyar_ as an
alternative form of _umanyar_.

> **I would write _Iluuvatar uume anta sanwe_ 'Iluuvatar did not give
> any thought'. At least it is safer.

Wouldn't this be _Iluuvatar untane sanwe_ ? Assuming, of course, that
_u-_ assimilated the _a-_.

> **If you want to use _onie_ 'creating', why not use a compound?
> _Onie-iire_ 'creating desire, desire for creating'?

What would happen to the vowel cluster in the middle of this compound?
It certainly couldn't be _onieiire_.


Rínon Lindalion



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Rínon Lindalion

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Ainulindale
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

Regarding the comparative, I just had a thought: what do you think about
using _pella_ = 'beyond'?  E.G., ' . . . alta noo pella . . .' = ' great
beyond [what he was] before'.  It's certainly not perfect.  Does anyone
have any other ideas?



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Edward Kloczko

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Ainulindale
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

vanlin a écrit:
>
> Regarding the comparative, I just had a thought: what do you think
> about using _pella_ = 'beyond'?  E.G., ' . . . alta noo pella . . .' =
> ' great beyond [what he was] before'.  It's certainly not perfect.
> Does anyone have any other ideas?
>

Pella means lit. 'Beyond the border of' as 'I went beyond the borders
of the us' =>  E.G. 'I was abroad' but pella was translated in English
as 'beyond' in Namárie.

Don't you think that a new list should be created for those on
this list who are not as much interested in Tolkien's language
than in 'poetry'?

I suggest to call it :
Iwanttobeanelvishpoetandhaveanelvishname@egroups.com Should be a very
'immodarated' group. 8-)

Ejk



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Ales Bican

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« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

 vanlin wrote:

> > **Seems a bit strange to me. Pa. T. of _har-_ would be _harne_ or
> > ever maybe _haare_, but very likely not _haarane_. _Har-_ is of the
> > same pattern as _car-_ and pa.T.'s of the _car-_ are given as
> > _carne_ and (in an earlier source) _caare_.
>
> I thought the verb was _hara-_.  I'm not sure, though.

 **There is _haarar_ in co and Tolkien translated it as 'are sitting'.
 According to what we know _haara_ is the present continuative, the
 aorist would be *_hare_, the root _har-_. Therefore such the
 preterites.

> > **We do not know if _laa_ can be used for 'no' (as 'no notes'), I
> > would not risk it. Simply say _uumer_ '[they] were not'. Anyway, I
> > would use here rather _ea_, pa.T. _Eane_ or _enge_.
>
> I assume you meant _uuner_; I agree.

 **No, I meant _uumer_. In Etym there is the stem ugu or umu which gives
 _umin_ 'I am not, I do not' and _uume_ is its pa.T.. It is assumed that
 these words can used for negatives.

> Why use _ea_, though?  I thought this should only be used when the
> emphasis on on the thing's existence, 'it exists' as opposed to
> merely 'it is'.

 **My personal feeling. I thought it as that in the music there
 were/existed no wrong notes. But it is but my feeling and may be wrong.

> > **I think I sure said it before: _yonta-_ cannot be used for the
> > comparatives, but you have not cared. At least it does not mean
> > 'more', for this _yonta-_ was a misreading for _yanta-_ which is
> > actually the verb 'enlarge, increase'!
>
> Oh!  I wasn't aware it was a misreading for a verb; I thought it was
> merely an old word, probably no longer valid.  Unfortunately, the
> comparative is a real necessity.  I'd go so far as to say the
> Ainulindale is untranslateable without it.  Any ideas?

 **Yes, it is will be untranslatable. We absolutely do not know how to
 form the comparatives.

> > **I would write _Iluuvatar uume anta sanwe_ 'Iluuvatar did not give
> > any thought'. At least it is safer.
>
> Wouldn't this be _Iluuvatar untane sanwe_ ? Assuming, of course, that
> _u-_ assimilated the _a-_.

 **No, the same _uume_ above mentioned. Prefixing _uu-_ seems to be only
 Sindarin way of forming negatives.

> > **If you want to use _onie_ 'creating', why not use a compound?
> > _Onie-iire_ 'creating desire, desire for creating'?
>
> What would happen to the vowel cluster in the middle of this compound?
> It certainly couldn't be _onieiire_.

 **I did not mean it as a 'normal' compound, but as a so-called
 loose compound.


Ales Bican



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